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Prrimitive Season

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Joined
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Lets say you finally get the primitive season you requested and get a 10 day long primitve only season. But the state says since you have your own season you are no longer allowed to hunt with a primitive muzzleloader during regular gun season, and only modern guns are used. And they add a 10 day inline season after modern gun season that you can't use your primitive muzzleloader in either since its for only inlines. Would you be ok with this ?? After all it is what esentially your requesting, to have your own season where only you can only hunt with primitive weapons. So what if you got it and lost all the other hunting time and gun season. I mean after all it is fair since the modern gun guys can only hunt that way during modern gun. Think about it. I can't wait to see the replies to this one. Sure I'd love a primitve season and there is one in Kansas but I wouldn't give up extra hunting time for it.
 
Here in Washington state you have to choose your weapon for the hunt. You buy either a archery tag, modern firearm, or muzzleloader. There is a drawing for a "all weapons tag" you can apply for but it's limited in numbers. Some folks love it some hate it. I love it because it limits the number of hunters in the field at one time.
I would support a primitive season if I didnt loose any time chasing deer or elk that I already have.
 
im with Zane121, i would support a primitive season that onley allowed traditional muzzleloaders. im also with bull3540, an inline IS a modern firearm so it belongs in the modern season.

giving inlines there own season is just like giving bolt action rifles a seperate season from lever action rifles. they are all modern firearms, heck many inlines these days can even use modern smokeless powder.

thankfully, WA state doesnt allow enclosed actions or scopes on muzzleloaders. this does limit the number of people who use inlines somewhat.

-Matt
 
I do like one thing Illinois did, that is make extra firearm seasons. You can use Slugs, any muzzleloader or handgun and in the late late seasons. Over the New Years and Dr. King holidays a muzzleloading pistol. We have our muzzleloader only weekend, both kinds. Archery goes from OCT 1-Jan 20th. We do not have rifle season because of population density; except for varmants and generally .22 rimfire or other small bore for small game. I think it would be cool if we could use rifles chambered in pistol calibers for deer like Indiana. I use my sidelock BP when I can. I think we need a new kind of 3 gun tournament for deer where you have to harvest 3 mature deer one with pistol, black powder rifle and bow or slug gun. This could take a bit longer than a couple of minutes. One year I did harvest 2 in a row one ML and one Pistol, the pistol shot was on a tri-ped (wounded fawn) who some------ had shot with bird shot in the front shoulder. Funny that the 11pt buck I harvested 4 years after the fawn had bird shot in him also. Note that birdshot will go through a meat grinder intact.
 
hunting is still about harvesting game to keep animal population within its limits. As long as our primary mission is to harvest excess game I do not care if you use atl atls to AR's during the same season. I choose the weapons I do because I like them. It is a personal choice. I think the more we legislate the worse it becomes. I do not think that limiting seasons and people like the do in say Washington state is fair based on what Matt Said. Additionally if you gave priority on seasons to say the youth hunts and most challenging weapon to use goes first you would undermine the annual harvest and that means overpopulation and everything that comes with that.
 
Agree somewhat......but for undermining harvest....opening weekend is magical because of the number of bodies in the woods pushing deer around here. The month long archery season does no harm to the orange hord in november in ny
 
That would be a big no for me. I hunt with my flintlocks during both the regular firearms season and the ML season. Southern MN requires shotgun hunting only, and while I could get a rifled shotgun barrel and sabot slugs, I went the traditional ML route for clean, accurate hunting, and I will (hopefully) never go back. :hatsoff:
 
Apologies for the length of this. It’s kinda a sore subject with me.
I would gladly give up being able to hunt with a muzzleloader during shotgun season in exchange for a TRADITIONAL ONLY muzzleloader season if for no other reason than the likelihood of inlines going away. I don’t even own a modern firearm legal for deer in my state, but if I did, and I cared to, I could shell out the money for a modern license as well.
I’ve debated getting involved in this thread because my interests have always been geared more toward competition than hunting. The fact that I pretty much quit shooting completely for almost ten years aside, when I shot my first squirrel this fall it was the first game I’d taken in at least fifteen years, probably longer, with ANY kind of firearm.
The weapon of choice in that instance was a flint smoothbore. I had access to dad’s old 311 Stevens double-barrel, his first shotgun, a .410 single shot, and a scoped Ruger 10/22. The Ruger has never killed anything, it has less than two boxes of cartridges through it even though I have had it for about ten years. I hunted with both shotguns when I in my early teens and killed a lot of squirrels with each of them. They both have tremendous sentimental value, but I doubt I will ever use either of them for hunting again. Why? For the simple reason that I WANT to hunt with a traditional muzzleloader. Even in a situation where I could use a multi-shot firearm, equipped with a scope that would bring the animal of the moment within rock throwing distance, I choose to hunt with open sights and the high probability of only getting one chance/shot.
Once upon a time when deer were nowhere near as plentiful as they are now people like me who would use a muzzleloader - a REAL muzzleloader - even when they didn’t have to, thought it would be nice to have a time set aside just for the primitive weapons they enjoyed hunting with. In many states, one of the selling points for muzzleloading only seasons was that the range of a roundball was far less than that of, say, a 30/30. This was a legitimate concern particularly in some of the eastern states where someone’s house might be out of sight but well within the range of a projectile fired from a modern rifle chambered for anything from a 30/30 on up. At any rate, the reason the early muzzleloader seasons were also referred to as PRIMITIVE weapons seasons is because that is what they were. They were for firearms using real-honest-to-God black powder and firing LEAD projectiles. Some states went so far as to make it round ball only.
Suddenly, all the folks who had been laughing at those idiots who shot, or even, if you can believe it, HUNTED with a muzzleloader, wanted one. Well, not really, but they wanted the extra season, and almost from the beginning steps were taken to follow the letter of the law while avoiding, or even discarding, the SPIRIT of it. At, or close, to the time that TC brought out the “Hawken”, they also introduced the Maxi-ball. Not wanting to lose out on any potential revenue, most DNRs rewrote the regs to allow the use of first Maxi-balls, and soon after other projectiles that were “superior” to those hopelessly antiquated roundballs. It has snowballed from there.
Forget flints or percussion caps. We now have “muzzleloaders” that don’t even require rifle or shotgun primers - the charge is ignited with a battery charged wire. I wasn’t aware of it before reading this thread, but I guess there are even “muzzleloaders” that use smokeless powder.
It’s only a matter of time before someone markets a double barrel with superimposed loads so your “muzzleloader” will be capable of four quick shots in succession.
And even if I loved shooting but abhorred hunting that would bother me. A lot.
Black powder is getting harder and harder to get. Federal regulations are often blamed, but time after time, when a retailer that once carried it and no longer does is asked why, the answer is, “we didn’t sell enough of it”. Of course, the REASON they don’t sell it is because the current, most commonly used “muzzleloaders” don’t require it. And the people shooting those rifles sure as *&^&% are not going to use it if they don’t have to.
Anyone who wants to hunt with a scoped, synthetic stocked, stainless steel barreled firearm using, at best, a shotgun primer to set of the little pellets that were loaded down the barrel in lieu of lose powder should be allowed to. In competition with all of the other modern firearms. Because that is what they are. If the inline boys don’t like it let ”˜em get a model 94 or a model 70. They still make ”˜em
Muzzleloader seasons should be black powder - real black powder - , exposed ignition, patched round ball, or, in the case of a military styled musket a Minnie-ball. Open sights only.
With a return to requiring traditional muzzleloaders only in muzzleloader season, there may be another resurgence in not only the guns themselves, but in the things (like real black powder) needed to shoot them.
The alternative may well be finding out (too late) that the resurgence in muzzleloading that occurred in the 1970s and 80s was in fact the beginning of the end for the game played by men like Cline, Ferris, Vickery”¦”¦. And most of the members of this board.
 
Zane121 said:
Here in Washington state you have to choose your weapon for the hunt. You buy either a archery tag, modern firearm, or muzzleloader. There is a drawing for a "all weapons tag" you can apply for but it's limited in numbers. Some folks love it some hate it. I love it because it limits the number of hunters in the field at one time.
I would support a primitive season if I didnt loose any time chasing deer or elk that I already have.
that's one of the reasons why I left WA
 
Ok I see where most people are going with this. And its good I am glad that many people are so pasionate about the primitive side of the sport. Let me throw one more small twist into this debate. Would you be ok with the inline guys if they used round balls, loose black powder, and iron sights and were restricted to a #11 primer. The would they be accepted by definition as a primitive weapon hunter. Since the only difference now is ones a side lock ones a behind lock.
 
let me know if this is going through so I can horde all the system 1's and Scouts. I hope to make enough to buy a good flintlock or 2.
 
Little John Z said:
Ok I see where most people are going with this. And its good I am glad that many people are so pasionate about the primitive side of the sport. Let me throw one more small twist into this debate. Would you be ok with the inline guys if they used round balls, loose black powder, and iron sights and were restricted to a #11 primer. The would they be accepted by definition as a primitive weapon hunter. Since the only difference now is ones a side lock ones a behind lock.

I’m guessing by #11 primer you mean #11 cap.
My reloading equipment wasn’t stolen, but I sold almost all of it when the guns were, and I have not reloaded a cartridge in many years. All I remember is large and small for rifles and pistols.
Anyway, to the restrictions you have listed I would have to add external hammer and exposed ignition. And ignition should be either flint or percussion cap. No, zero, zilch, modern primers. Not to sound Biblical, but “in the beginning” that’s how it was.
I know that primers were in use back in the day, but in all instances I know of it was with heavy bench guns. Not hunting rifles.

Bolt action muzzleloaders should be restricted to modern gun seasons. PERIOD.

The current situation (traditional muzzleloaders taking a back seat to guns that are only muzzleloaders in the strictest definition) should never have been allowed to happen. The NMLRA’s stance that “if it loads from the muzzle, it’s a muzzleloader” was/is detrimental to the sport. They should have fought to keep primitive weapons seasons for PRIMITIVE weapons. They not only didn’t, they continue to actually promote these modern abominations. It is the main reason that my membership in that organization will probably be allowed to lapse after just one year.
 
Little John Z said:
Would you be ok with the inline guys if they used round balls, loose black powder, and iron sights and were restricted to a #11 primer.


I would. I don`t have a problem with the fact that modern high tech muzzleloaders exist. I just think that guns that have the performance advantages of a modern weapon should be used in the general firearms season.
 
Randy said:
Anyway, to the restrictions you have listed I would have to add external hammer and exposed ignition. And ignition should be either flint or percussion cap. No, zero, zilch, modern primers. Not to sound Biblical, but “in the beginning” that’s how it was.

I wasn't going to get back into this because we already had a completely separate thread on this, but I have to ask a couple of questions:

1) By no modern primers, do you mean that modern percussion caps that are super-reliable compared to the way they were "in the beginning" would not be allowed?

2) "In the beginning" did they even have flintlocks and caplocks? I thought it started with more primitive ignition systems like burning rope, etc. I'm not much of a historian, but weren't flinklocks and then caplocks "modern" technological huge improvements of their time?

3) My original venture into Muzzleloading has a completely exposed ignition system that can use percussion caps (#11 or musket). It can use (and I did use) loose powder. Not sure the twist would shoot roundballs all that well, but it could. The "directness" of the ignition system into the powder charge is equally as primitive as an underhammer ignition system. Based on this, would that "abomination" fit your definition of an acceptable rifle to use?

4) I don't know why the NMLRA chose the definition they did or not "fight" modern muzzleloaders in 50 states...perhaps they were smart enough to know how much resource they have to spend on certain issues and compared that to the amount of resource it would take to fight what in all likelihood would be a completely losing battle of technological change in the sport. One should hardly hold the NMLRA responsible for changes in hunting seasons across 50 states.

I'm not advocating for "modern" muzzleloaders. My preference is to keep these "special" seasons for more primitive weapons and have supported that position in letters to my elected officials in my state. But as I pointed out in my previous post in the other thread, where to draw a line is something every person involved in the sport has an opinion on. I can express mine to my elected officials...other express theirs...and in the end the majority rules, whether I would prefer it or not.

We just need to make sure we promote hunting and keep our total numbers (regardless of weapon choice) strong enough to be a viable political force. I'm not sure that at a very high-level, the modern muzzleloader with it's relatively low cost entry point and shorter learning curve hasn't helped us to achieve that in some way. As traditional muzzleloader enthusiasts I think our resources are better spent taking every opportunity we can to promote the "traditional" weapons and make sure the falacies of "inaccurate", etc are squelched as much as possible instead of in-fighting with our brethern hunters and appearing "elitist."

I may prefer traditional weapons, but I'll hunt with anyone that hunts ethically and legally regardless of what they carry in their hands.
 
Here in Alabama I get 5 days of muzzleloader season (Nov.12 to Nov. 16) and over two months of regular season (Nov.17 to Jan.31st.). So it would be a big no for me. We don't have to buy tags, just a license that covers both weapons.
 
It must be nice to not have to deal with all the tags etc....Because of laws pertaining to muzzleloading firearm technology in Illinois I have to purchase muzzleloaders in a similar manner as modern firearms, Muzzleloaders are considered modern firearms in Illinois. To be legal I would need muzzleloaders shipped to a FFL. I like to support local shops but it means I have to go there fill out paperwork come back waste time and gas etc... I now just order a firearm have it shipped to my FFL at usually wholesale and pay them 20.00. I have considered getting a C&R to support my gun habbit. This is the point I am trying to make is that laws usually do not make situations better, just cost more in a lot of ways.
 
some have mentioned having a hunting season that allows all weapons to be used. if this was the case... i would not hunt at all. the onley reason i decided to start hunting is that we have a season that restricts the number of people by limiting weapons to muzzleloaders. im not willing to be out in the woods with thousands of other people who are shooting at everything that moves. i do not trust most hunters as most onley fire there guns once a year.

ive seen the woods around here durring modern season. you cant walk 30 yards without running into a hunter. if that wasnt bad enough, every year tons of people report getting shot at!

ill pass on hunting with the rest of the sheeple.
-Matt
 
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