Proof Mark

[btech]

Is anyone familiar with this proof mark?

 

[cynthialee]

Crown and Keys is a Papal symbol.
That is all I know. I went looking through some proof marks but couldn't find this one.

 

[cynthialee]

Though I think Belgian as the style of crown over the keys is typical Belgian style crown one finds on guns with Belgian proof marks that have crowns in the mark.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Agree with Cynthialee on both points but the "Keys of Heaven" Papal actually uses a different crown or miter. Have done the check, check, double-check thing the last 48 hours...nothing I love better than a real challenge...but this one is turning into a real hair puller! The papal thing jumped immediately to mind as well but I didn't see a Vatican gunshop as very likely. have found a number of "crossed key" symbols used in heraldry across Europe...more than I ever though possible, but still no exact matches. This is interesting and frustrating at the same time!

 

[Claude Mathis]

Crossed keys were also used by silversmith H. Wilkinson & Co of Sheffield.

And on swords

Similar to Martini
http://www.martinihenry.com/proofmks.htm

 

[btech]

Thanks for all the responses. I've been researching this for 2 days and can't find a thing on this proof. I've looked at dozens of European proofs with no luck.
The seller says it is a Belgium brevet Colt. I don't know how he knows that if this proof cannot be identified. I'm starting to suspect that it is more modern gun.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Wouldn't necessarily make the assumption it's newer just yet. May actually be more in the inspector's view mark since it's on multiple parts. A true proof would be on barrel and possible cylinder only, since it's a revolver. If that's true, the mark may be even harder to identify. Keep plugging away, no telling when the true answer may jump up and bite. If you're considering bidding, get more facts and photos! :thumbsup:

 

[Shine]

That is a proof from Montenegro.

 

[galamb]

Good eye.

Here is a Belgian made Montenegro proof mark

 

[Wes/Tex]

Good going guys! Montenegro is the last place I'd have gone with research or guess...well, maybe Borneo is the LAST place! :thumbsup:

 

[Shine]

I never even heard if the place until I wound up very close to it.

 

[Wes/Tex]

If you ended up close to Montenegro, sounds like an interesting story. All I know about those guys is they toted some big ole honking Gasser 11mm revolvers around shoved in their shorts thanks to good King Nicholas who decided all grown men needed a big ole honking Gasser 11mm revolver! :wink: Second,, the weren't afraid to tell Austria-Hungary to go stick it...like the Serbs, who also stuck out their tongue and hollered for Russia to come bail'em out! :haha:

 

[Shine]

I got a lot of travel in, back in the 90s

 

[btech]

Thank you! this was driving me crazy. I had to research this place to even find out where it is. No data base on the net has a Montenegro proof mark! Here's the revolver in question:

Can you now help with any idea of manufacture date? The research I've found would suggest the late 1800's.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Would go with 3rd quarter of 19th century. It's a Colt Navy knock-off, if you will, hence the name "Brevet". Could be Liege made and Montenegran proofed...don't find any real source of gun manufacture at that time or later in Montenegro. Everything they used then and later was usually Austrian, later Russian. The revolver is a curiosity but should be enjoyed. Cylinder seems long for the frame, the hammer does turn rather upward and the cylinder surface may or may not have some sort of tantalizing markings, engravings or Lord knows what. Don't really know what to make of it but golly, is it ever interesting. I would suggest you attempt to get some more detailed photos of it from the sellers, which may or may not even be possible. It's got it's own character but don't mortgage the farm for it, it'll never be worth any sort of big dollars.

 

[btech]

Thanks for the input. They've had it up for sale twice at $350 with no bids. The cylinder has a pic of a sailing ship going under a bridge. I understand these are commonly known as the "Brooklyn Bridge" brevets. Top of barrel says "Colt Extra American". I'm thinking about offering $250 just to play with it.

 

[galamb]

Here's a little piece I found.

"Colt took out his Belgian patent dated 21 August 1849 and, like many European countries at the time, an article patented had to be produced in that country within two years, otherwise the patent became void.

By the time Colt was able to arrange for patent revolvers to be produced in Belgium, imitations of his 1851 Navy revolver were already being made by the gunmaking centres of Belgium outside of the patent.

Many of the genuine 'Belgium Colts', as they are also known, have the name 'N.Gillon' or 'L.'Ghaye' stamped on them. Although it is far from clear, it is often taken that Gilon and Ghaye were Colt Licensees, producing legitimate Colt copies under patent with either name stamped on an example - a practice a patent infringer is likely to have undertaken.

Belgium Colts are generally modeled after the early fourth model Colt Navy."

 

[Wes/Tex]

There some interesting marks showing up in the larger photo. Looks like three more crossed keys & crown on the barrel breech side above the wedge, what looks like 43 or 49 at the bottom of the barrel breech, similar with a diamond style stamp as well on the forward frame side, some fine lettering along the frame side and a 35 with three letters on the side of the trigger guard at the rear. Might even be something on the right bottom of frame above the 35 but can't tell. This old critter is like an Easter egg hunt!

 

[Claude Mathis]

Enlargement

 

[Wes/Tex]

Thanks Claude. Definitely looks like "Pat td System" and almost looks like "?" below...probably not though! Definitely inspector's marks hither and yon and some 'pick-up" screws in the trigger guard. Everything I say sounds worse but that old gun does have "something" about it! :thumbsup: Suppose I just love an old mystery too much! Merry Christmas!