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Picking Flash hole

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Cooner54 said:
"...It is just a matter of good maintenance. 100% maintenance = 100% performance..."
Just as a side conversation Cooner, not challenging anything that you do...literally just curious because I have the same 100% performance results and never pick the vent...so there has to be some kind of differences between rifles, breeches, vents, powders & lube vs. fouling, etc...what are some of those differences?

My situation is Goex 3F with NL1000 lube;
My barrels have patent breeches;
The removeable vent liners are heavily coned inside & out;
The liners have a huge hole an eyelash smaller than 5/64".

I normally don't wipe between shots but even during a range session when I do, fouling never gets down into the patent breech/vent area.

My assumption is the reasons I don't have to pick the vent is because:
1) The patent breech keeps the fouling out of there in the first place so I'm not dealing with any debris or klinkers to begin with;
2) The size and coned design of the vent liner has the powder sitting right there on the other side of a thin .030" wall so the pan flash hit it good;
3) The size/design of the vent liner seems to sort of self clean itself from the 3F exhaust.

Thoughts?
 
It may very well be the patent breech arrangement. It puts the heat at the very back end of the charge and probably the pressure blows it all out. I dunno for sure. My flinters are all coned from the inside and are simple flint breeches with the heat coming in at the side of the charge. Still at the tail end of the charge but from the side. I have always had the habit of picking the vent so I don't really have any idea how many shots I can get off without picking. :hmm: I may have to play with that the next time I go out to the range. I was going to go out today but it snowed and momma was cooking up some ham. :grin:

BTW, I just shoot Goex Black powder and I am still playing with various natural lubes. The latest is beeswax and bear oil mix. I have been using Bore Butter almost exclusively for years but am wanting to do everything as old timey as I can.
 
paulvallandigham said:
You are wrong, Mr. Phariss, but you have that right to be wrong. I can show you the difference in ignition time, or you can find it out for yourself, but no one is going to convince you writing about the " Why " here. You have a standing invitation to come to Champaign, Il. where we can take my rifle out and show you the difference. :hatsoff:


So you have high speed photos??? Electrically timed comparisons??
Someone standing by saying "boy thats really fast" is not "proof".

You have made numerous claims, one as to a lock so fast it will light the main charge before the cock stops. This simply impossible to determine with the human eye and I don't think you can demonstrate it consistently with high speed photography either.
I think its extremely rare if possible at all. I suggest you look at the HS photography of flintlocks on youtube. You will see the cock is always down well before the priming even lights.

So when you get some high speed videos that show the main charge of your rifle firing before the cock stops falling or timed comparison tests using various liners showing that picking the touch hole speeds ignition to the point a *human can sense it* let me know. Until that time we will have to agree to disagree.

I have been shooting/building flintlocks for quite some time and have built and used about every vent type known and all the breech designs I know of and if you have a good liner there is very little difference in the ignition speed. I have a lock with a *very* fast cock fall and it sparks well. It is not much if any faster than a large round faced English lock used on a fowler I once built. I have a Manton design lock with fairly stiff springs (its easy on flints BTW) and a Nock breech with a White lightning liner. Powder is right to the face of the recessed breech, the frizzen's pan cover is designed to prevent the priming from getting within 1/8" of the vent. This breech does not pack the powder tight either, it really can't by design. It seems faster than the others, but I would need electronic equipment to be sure. But the Manton recessed breech combined with the Nock breech is supposed to be the fastest. Some very smart gunsmiths spent a lot of time trying to speed the flint gun up.
The delay is in the priming igniting and then making enough heat to ignite the main charge.

Maybe you should come to Montana and shoot the 16 bore a few shots.

Dan
 
Mule Skinner said:
I had been reading on the forum about picking the flash hole to create an air space to speed up ignition. Well my ignition was fine anyway, but I had to fool with it and pick the flash hole and all I got were misfires. What am I missing here?

What's missing is that the pick is to be used to clean the touch hole before you reload. The air space, as you found out, creates the problem. The powder particles need to be at the hole to be set-off by the incandescent heat from the priming flash. Pushing anything into the touch hole after the powder is loaded just removes the main charge from it's ignition source. Good luck.
 
i have 3 flinters, a 50, a 54, an a 58,on the 50 and 54 i made the liners, coned them well on the inside, after installation i drilled out the holes to ,072"on all 3 guns,i also use a lead wrap on my flints, after firing i clean out the touch hole between shots,never stick the pick whilst powder is in the barrel,i have very few hangfires
 
Dan: I have had about a dozen PMs from members here who have followed my advice about picking the powder charge with a vent pick before priming, who report faster ignition, and other shooters coming down the firing line to ask them when they started to shoot percussion? I have had friends, and relatives, and friends of relatives try my advice, and all have had the same experience. Its not just one guy standing next to me telling me my gun is going off fast.

I wish I did have high speed film to show you, but that equipment is very expensive to purchase, and just is not available from camera shops and photographers here to " borrow ". Believe me, I have asked, all in anticipation of challenges from guys like you. I talked to Pletch about doing this kind of thing, but we could not incorporate it into his experiments he already had planned for Friendship last June. It may still happen. Hold your horses.

I have described and shown my technique of loading a flintlock to old time shooters, who have years more experience than I do. As usual, they were equally as skeptical, until they hear my gun go off. Then they demanded me to do it again. They watched much more closely and listened as I described again how to load the powder patch and ball, and why, watched me picked the main charge with my vent pick, watched me prime my pan, and listened while I explained why my pan had to be primed that way, and then listened and watched me fire my gun again. Then they loaded their gun as I directed them, and when they fired, their guns went off faster than ever before. They insisted, as they should have, to see that experience repeat at least 2 more times, before conceding that I might be on to something, and in all cases, their guns have continued to fire faster. Then I was met with sheepish smiles, and the usual, " G--Durn lawyer! How in the heck did you figure that out?" At which point, I remind them that I DIDN'T figure this out myself. My late friend L. Don latter, who was a whiz at building and tuning flintlocks is the guy who taught me.

I don't really care whether you want to believe me or not, Dan. I was not put on this Earth to please you in the least, and I will not lose any sleep over your doubts, or opinions. I would not dare have written about any of this unless I was absolutely convinced that it worked, not just in my gun, but in other guns, and for othter shooters. I ran this by my gunbuilder/gunsmith, and by Phil Quaglino, A championship holding rifle and pistol shooter via my brother, Peter. I have talked about the technique with other long time shooters at Friendship, and shown them the technique. It works for them.

The difference here is what I have already mentioned: In talking to older shooters of flintlocks, they learned to accept the slower ignition of a flintlock, with the priming powder covering the vent hole, the powder packed right up to the outside of the vent, and the slow ignition and obvious fuse effect when the gun did fire. They have accepted an occasional flash in the pan, as expected, and part of the " Charm?" of shooting a flintlock. They taught themselves to hold their sights on target through a long wait and follow through while the main charge finally burned and fired the ball out the barrel. They just never have known any other way.

Then here I come, once a " Young whippersnapper", and show them how to make that same gun go off as fast, and sometimes faster than a percussion gun, destroying the advantage they have over newer flintlock shooters with all the years spent learning to hold those sights on target through the long slow firing sequence, by teaching guys how to get the gun to go off so fast that the sights don't have a chance to move. More than one older shooter has scoffed at me, and suggested that I was ruining his sport for him. ( Read that: " HIS ADVANTAGE to win matches when he teaches new flintlock shooters to load their guns the same way he does!" The new shooters don't have the discipline and practice to be able to hold their sights on target as long as he can.)

You have my standing invitation, Dan. It was sincerely given. I would rather show you what I am doing and how it all works to your advantage than to continue this argument here. Then, if you still want to shoot your gun "slow " go right ahead. At least you will understand how and why I am doing things differently, and turning heads doing so.
 
I've been following this thread and have to say that different methods work best for different people and guns, but I too had to enlarge the vent on my .40 to 5/64ths as well. It is coned on the inside and sits rather lower in the pan being centered on the flat of a 13/16ths barrel. I pick it every time and only use a small amount of priming powder, keeping it away from the hole with the bulk of the powder towards the outside of the pan. When hunting it's hard to keep it that way, so from time to time I check it. At the range it's much easier. And it fires as fast if not faster than a percussion gun.

The only time I have a hangfire is if some crud was pushed into the cone of the liner when wiping and wasn't completely moved when picking, and that is rare.

The slightly larger 5/64ths hole doesn't affect velocity enough to notice, at least not in my .40, but makes a big difference in ignition. And I'm a firm believer in picking the vent to remove that potential fuse and I don't want my prime to cover that hole. So, I have to agree.
 
My gun is a Traditions Deerhunter. The liner has a screw driver slot and the touch hole is in the bottom of the slot. It has not been drilled out. I shoot as well with it as I do a caplock because it goes off just as fast it seems. I pick the vent after loading with a brass nipple pick before I prime for every shot. As Paul has tried to tell folks, the flinters go off faster and more consistant if the powder is loose at the touch hole. That is why the advice to not compress the powder column in flinters is so important to those that do not pick the vent.

The group here that is trying to disrupt and attack everything and everyone over everything they write is doing the whole group no favors. Their contempt prior to investigation of everything but their own ideas stops them from being able to learn, and now their attacks stop others from being able to also.
Roundball, have you ever even fired a flinter that was not a TC?
 
i don't even own a pick, have not drilled out the vent, use both leather and lead, and have never had a flash in the pan other than dry-balling. and my shooting buddies claim my gun is faster than paul's.

take care, daniel

p.s. i knew a guy once who wondered why everyone was picking on him.
 
Paul,
I have taken your posts seriously and applied your technique and I have seen a huge difference in my flinters ignition time. (All of my flinters have patent breeches). I use 2f in my lyman 54 GPR and my pedersoli 50 alamo. I have been shooting my pedersoli 54 kentucky pistol with 3f but I am not getting the instantaneous ignition I have grown accustom to. So I am considering switching by pistol powder to 2f.

Thanks for you inputs, they have been a great help to me.
 
This is not in response to a particular post.

There seems to be a lot of "My Way or the Highway" from all sides on this and several other variations in methodology throughout the forum. Don't fall into a trap of narrowmindedness. Flintlocks are the most ornery of mechanisms, and what works for you, your rifle(s), shooting style, loading technique and components may fall very much flat for the next shooter. I used to shoot model rockets and years ago decided the "innie" method of forming a cone in the powder column would introduce the most flash plasma into the charge and be the fastest igntion possible. But I have gotten lazy lately and don't bother. Guess what? No noticable or perceived difference in the current rifle.

A "fuse" delayed ignition may be 100%, while a fast ignition may be 90%. I have noticed this with my current Jim Chambers lock and relationship of the vent to pan and so fill the pan right up to 75% when hunting. I'd rather a slight hitch in ignition of a few milliseconds than risk a flash.

We should all remember to use words like "may", "can", "some" and "in my experience" because there are few universal absolutes in flintlocks. That's what makes them so much fun. Finding how your rifle/gun behaves under varying conditions. Just because you believe something is better is no guarantee of performance enhancement to others.

But keep sharing ideas and your solutions that work. THAT is what will help the rest of us. Just don't get preachy and uppity about it. Some of us have made about every mistake and blunder imaginable and will mutter "not that old saw again" when "new" ideas pop up here annually. Some folks seem to live gifted lives and are making things work that have failed for groups of us. Sometimes important steps are unintentionally left out that would solve misunderstandings. At least we can give them the benefit of the doubt . . . :wink:

I usually only stab at what seems intrinsically unsafe here as an advocate to new shooters who might be gullible enough to try it and get hurt or break equipment.
 
Runner said:
My gun is a Traditions Deerhunter. The liner has a screw driver slot and the touch hole is in the bottom of the slot. It has not been drilled out. I shoot as well with it as I do a caplock because it goes off just as fast it seems. I pick the vent after loading with a brass nipple pick before I prime for every shot. As Paul has tried to tell folks, the flinters go off faster and more consistant if the powder is loose at the touch hole. That is why the advice to not compress the powder column in flinters is so important to those that do not pick the vent.

The group here that is trying to disrupt and attack everything and everyone over everything they write is doing the whole group no favors. Their contempt prior to investigation of everything but their own ideas stops them from being able to learn, and now their attacks stop others from being able to also.
Roundball, have you ever even fired a flinter that was not a TC?
Runner, have you ever made a post that wasn't designed to provoke conflict and controversy?
Everything you just wrote in your Last paragraph applies to you 150%...supported by your own admission in previous posts you've made about it occurring on other forums as well...so you'd do well to concentrate all your efforts on policing yourself more and don't worry about everybody else...like that old saying: "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"

:thumbsup:
 
Stumpkiller, I couldn't have said it any better; thank you for the calming influence. I would hate to see this forum fall into the pattern of several others with personal attacks, vilification, etc. We are here to LEARN and the more ideas presented, the better for each of us to sort out and find what works for EACH of us, individually. Emery
 
I am certainly no expert regarding flintlocks and really do not want to further the controversy but I thought that I might post this just because it has not been mentioned. That means there is probably a very good reason that I should not to use this technique but it works well for me. I generally use a 90 grain charge of 2f. After swabbing between shots I use the pick to make sure there is no fouling in the vent. I then place the pick in the vent and leave it there until the gun is loaded. When I am ready to shoot, I pull the pick, prime and fire. I get excellent results using this technique. I don’t know where I learned this, I just know that it works well with my gun and loads.
 
Roundball, nothing in my post was intended to cause controvery. There is a group here that insists that there is only one way to shoot a flintlock for some reason. You are one of them, despite ever mentioning having fired anything but TC flintlocks that I remember. I ask Mr. Chambers when I want to know about Chambers locks. I will ask you if I ever need someone with a lot of experience with a TC lock. On my Traditions lock, Paul challenged me to open my mind and do a couple of simple tests. Bevel up wrapped in lead fills the pan with sparks when the other options are not even close. I never said he was God.
There are many answers to the same question when it comes to flintlocks like Claude said. Mine throws hotter dancing splitting sparks that land in the pan one way. I don't try to tell people what way to use myself. I try to get them to go into a dark room and find out more about their own gun than they knew a few minutes before. That is the same thing Paul does too.
Same thing applies to picking the vent. Try it and see how your gun responds. Mine fires very well using a pick. Some of the old timers kept a feather quill stuck in the vent with the pan closed on it. When they wanted to fire, they simply tugged the feather out. I don't use that system, but I am not going to say there is anything wrong with it.
You seem ready to fight over anything these days and to think there is only one path here. I don't want to fight. I hope you have a good hunt or something soon!
 
"My gun is a Traditions Deerhunter. The liner has a screw driver slot and the touch hole is in the bottom of the slot. It has not been drilled out. I shoot as well with it as I do a caplock because it goes off just as fast it seems. I pick the vent after loading with a brass nipple pick before I prime for every shot. As Paul has tried to tell folks, the flinters go off faster and more consistant if the powder is loose at the touch hole. That is why the advice to not compress the powder column in flinters is so important to those that do not pick the vent.

The group here that is trying to disrupt and attack everything and everyone over everything they write is doing the whole group no favors. Their contempt prior to investigation of everything but their own ideas stops them from being able to learn, and now their attacks stop others from being able to also."

I first started shooting flint back in the late 70's with a CVA Hawken with a flint lock. I was used to shooting percussion, so this was a new deal to me. I used to fill the pan to the top and never picked it. The rare times it did go off it was slow as all get out. Then there was that problem with the patent breech, but that's another thread. Later, I was taught better. I learned by trial and error about the amount of powder to use and about clearing the vent. On the rifle I shoot now which I built back in '90, the touchhole is in the center of the flat on a relatively small barrel (13/16). The pan is fairly shallow, so I don't use very much powder, don't need to. And I still pick. I believe you or someone else mentioned something about being told to have the flint's bevel up for best service. In my case, it will only work bevel down. Not just better, it's the only way to get a spark with this lock. It's an old type Siler kit lock. Another rifle I used to have built by John Hall which also had a Siler was the same way. Heck, my Charleville musket works best with the bevel down. Obviously the lock geometry causes it, but I'm not worrying about. I could shoot without picking and 9 times out of 10 without a problem, but that 10th time could be at the worst possible time. I think I'll keep picking.

I'm a little troubled about the bickering that's been going on throughout the Forum about techniques &c. Although I've never met any of you, I think of you as friends. And although I don't always agree with some of the comments and techniques described here, each of us has a right to his opinion. Some of us may have a way of explaining things that others don't care for, but we need to try to overlook these things. We need to remember that our guns are different, even those mass produced ones. Like you said, everyone needs to take their weapon and learn it. Experiment with the various techniques and see what works the best for them. It takes time and effort, but so does anything that's worth while. And it can be fun! I say to new shooters and old ones too, even though some of us have been doing this for a long time, you don't have to take our word as gospel. We can recommend or suggest something that works well for us, but nobody's forcing anyone else to do it, and we shouldn't try even if we could. I know I've learned some handy little tricks on here and I've been at it a good while. So I'm going to wind up this little epistle with an appeal to all involved to keep the good info flowing and to not knock down the other feller's ideas unless there is a safety concern. (BTW Runner, I'm not directing this at you, this is just a general statement while I'm here). I agree with what you said.
:grin:
 
Good catch! I ment bevel down like I always say. Bevel up hits too far down on my lock and produces few sparks.
 
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