Petroleum vs vegetable oil

[Oldnamvet]

Given that petroleum products result in cleaning difficulties when compared to things like olive oil, I am curious as to why this happens. What is the difference in these two mixtures of mainly carbon and hydrogen? Does something in the petroleum oils polymerize or form inordinate amounts of carbon soot/tars? Anyone ever studied this other than realizing they need to stay away from the petroleum products in the barrel? :hmm:

 

[Zonie]

Not being a scientist, I can't give you the chemical reaction that takes place when black powder is ignited in the presence of petroleum based oils.

There is little doubt that the combination will create a thick tar like substance that is difficult to remove.

To test this I ran some tests which are in this link:
OIL FOULING

If you follow the link you will see the results of my tests.

Although petroleum and vegetable oils are composed from carbon among other things they do seem to react very differently to the fouling created by black powder or Pyrodex.

I don't think anyone will tell someone that they should never use petroleum oils on their guns or in their guns bores but most will agree that if they are used, they should be throughly wiped out before loading the first shot.

 

[sidelock]

Good job Zonie. Helps explain a lot. :thumbsup:

 

[Dphar]

Given that petroleum products result in cleaning difficulties when compared to things like olive oil, I am curious as to why this happens. What is the difference in these two mixtures of mainly carbon and hydrogen? Does something in the petroleum oils polymerize or form inordinate amounts of carbon soot/tars? Anyone ever studied this other than realizing they need to stay away from the petroleum products in the barrel? :hmm:

Petroleum reacts differently to BP combustion.
I know a guy who can do chapter and verse on this and I likely have the info around here but finding it would be tough.
Basically the chemicals involved tend to make for harder caked fouling.
Pure Neatsfoot oil is a good patch lube.
Never tried Olive Oil on patches but it should work. Some vegetable oils tend to cook hard when heated too.
I would tend toward animal oils like Neatfoot oil (not compound), bear oil etc since I have experience with them.

Dan

 

[Swampman]

"Does something in the petroleum oils polymerize or form inordinate amounts of carbon soot/tars?"

That is correct. It's basically a tar that's left from cooking the oil down when the gun is fired.

 

[BrownBear]

"I would tend toward animal oils like Neatfoot oil (not compound), bear oil etc since I have experience with them."

I used to think all this was a bunch of hooey until I started making my own lubes from rendered deer tallow and olive oil. Mine produces fouling more like soft paste shoe polish. I was used to the commercial prelubed patches and patches lubed with miracle lube or wonderlube (whatever the yellow stuff in the tube is). They produce a much harder fouling kinda like charcoal, especially right down near the chamber. I know they're supposed to be non-petroleum, but whatever they use produces a hard fouling with Pyrodex.

 

[buckknife]

From what i have read it has to do with the number of carbon atoms and hydrgen atoms and their bonds.The fats in the oils also maybe.I have yet to see a can of 10w30 that says how much fat is in it. To use petro oil as a patch lube it has to go threw a process that makes it water soulable like a cutting oil or ballstol.Then there is no tar fouling and cleans out of the bore better than the vegy oils or fats.It will mix with water where the ohter oils dont.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

When steam engines were king it was learned that only Pennsylvania crude oil could be used as cylinder oil since it did not turn to tar when exposed to the heat of a steam engine cylinder. This "cylinder oil" was also a common ingredient in bullet lubes used in both breech and muzzle loading target rifles. Cylinder oil is still available from just one source today, do a Google, and still made from Pennsylvania crude.
Personally, I think this is a non issue. In more than fifty years of shooting muzzleloaders and always protecting the bores with "gun oil" I have never seen any problems from petroleum. I guess if the bore were dripping oil and someone loaded it and managed to get it to fire, they could have a problem with the residue. But that would be a dumb thing to do regardless of the type of oil used. If you dry patch the bore before loading there is no problem. I think those who claim this to be a problem have likely done a poor job of cleaning, or no cleaning, and just rely on the oil to forestall rust. Before they fire the fist shot they already have a problem of residue left from the previous session.
I've seen lots of barrels ruined by rust pitting, I've never seen one harmed by petroleum. :grin:

 

[CoyoteJoe]

And Many Thank You's to Zonie for the test!! :thumbsup:

 

[Toomuch_36]

"I would tend toward animal oils like Neatfoot oil (not compound), bear oil etc since I have experience with them."

I used to think all this was a bunch of hooey until I started making my own lubes from rendered deer tallow and olive oil. Mine produces fouling more like soft paste shoe polish. I was used to the commercial prelubed patches and patches lubed with miracle lube or wonderlube (whatever the yellow stuff in the tube is). They produce a much harder fouling kinda like charcoal, especially right down near the chamber. I know they're supposed to be non-petroleum, but whatever they use produces a hard fouling with Pyrodex.

Chemical anallisis of these lubes indicates that they are derived from 98% petroleum jelly and 2% wintergreen oil.

Shoot Flint
..........
Toomuch

 

[Woodbutcher]

Petroleum products mixed with sulfur and heated, make asphalt. Woodbutcher