Pedersoli Kodiak Doubles

[Robbo]

From following the discussions elswehere, I am thinking about getting a Pedersoli double rifle (maybe in .58). However, I can't find one anywhere to handle and have a close look at, so apologies if this is a silly question.

I have been told that the problem with the double rifle is that it has a separate set of sights mounted on each barrel, not a single set on the centre rib - express style - as this would require the barrels to be regulated by the manufacturer to hit a single point of aim.

Frankly, I find the idea of two sets of sights a bit odd. Is the gun actually made this way? I was wondering if anyone could clear this up for me?

Cheers

Robbo

 

[paulvallandigham]

Cabelas carries them some time. Check their on-line catalogue, and then check with the nearest store.

 

[Robbo]

Thanks Paul. Regrettably, we don't have Cabela's stores this far south Maybe one day. They are a GREAT store.

 

[mike alexandre]

Hi Robbo. I bought a .58 last year and have shot patch ball and conical from it. It does indeed have two rear sights and one fore sight. The two rear sights are mounted one behind the other about a half an inch apart and they both flip up or down depending on which barrel you are fireing. Each rear sight is adjustable up and down and left and right with a small "V" insert mounted on two small screws. The whole thing is pretty mickey mouse and IMO gives a less than accurate sight picture. I've had a significant amount of success at 50 and a promising amount at 100yds with patch ball. Conical has been less promising at 50 and too random at 100 so far but I have just got a new conical bullet mould from Christiaan in SA which is beginning to look good. I've just bought a set of optical sights which come as an after kit so lets see what happens.

 

[Robbo]

Thanks for the info Justmike

Is it a hassle to flip the sights up or down between shots? I would have thought that the major advantage of a heavy double like this is an almost instantaneous shot without shifting the gun off the shoulder (ie where a quick second shot is needed for dangerous game, or a snap target etc). Seems to defeat the purpose a bit if you have to fiddle with the sights??? Grateful for your thoughts.

Best Wishes

Robbo

 

[Dalekg6]

Hi,

As mentioned the two rear sights are in line with each other, very similar to a traditional express sight. I have one of these rifles in 58 cal. For me at 50 yds the barrels shoot close enough that I only use one sight. I have one sight set for round ball and the other set for conicals. As also mentioned I have had much better accuracy with round balls.

Dale

 

[windwalker_au]

robo i have seen two that had those rear sights removed and the rear sight from the 45/70 double fitted that worked fine.
bernie :thumbsup: [url] http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/ArmiCategoria.aspx?CategoriaId=247&lang=en http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/ArmiCategoria.aspx?CategoriaId=280&lang=en[/url]

 

[F.G. Ford]

Hey Robbo,
I've had a Pedersolli Dbl. 58 for over twenty years.
Mine shoots patched round ball, just great.
80 grs 2f in the left barrel, and 90 grs 2f in the right barrel, has same point of impact at 75 yds., very close at 100 yds.
It took a lot of hit and miss to find this out.
My Kodiak doesn't shoot minnie ball worth a darn, and it kicks like " HELL" for nothing.
That .58 ball drops a moose, as though it was hit by lightning.
If you get one, work with left barrel, until it is on the mark, by playing with the powder charge, in the right barrel, you will bring point of impact to the left barrel.
This rifle is not designed to be a long range piece, it is supposed to be a hunters rifle, for close up shots.
By the way, mine is a much older model with only one rear sight.
I love mine!
Old Ford

 

[paulvallandigham]

The flip up sight is for longer ranged shots. You have the time to do so because you are far enough from the game that it is not worried about your presence, even if it does see you. The shorter, fixed sight is used on those close shots, which could be needed very quickly if you have a charging, lion, or elephant, or rhino, or cape buffalo. The whole reason for the double rifles were to give the hunter a second quick round in the event of a charge. The flip up is rarely used, and then for the first shot. It can be quickly flipped down before the second and closer shot in the event of a charge.

I have seen and held one of the Kodiak guns, at a gun show years ago, and I believe it was one of the early ones. It is a heavy gun which you want in these much larger calibers. Its not the lightest gun to take into the field, however, and I would buy a better gun if all I was going to hunt is whitetail deer. As one owner has already observed, a .58 Round Ball killed a moose like he hit it with a train. When you are throwing out that much lead, its very hard to see the need for a conical, except for long range shooting. That is not the kind of hunting these guns are designed to do well.

If you choose to buy one and use conicals, Protect that bullet's base with an OP wad. That is about the only way you are going to get any accuracy with them. ( This is a lesson learned anew by the BPCSA members, shooting their Sharps replica rifles out to 500 yds. and further. With the huge load of compacted FFFg powder in those big casings, its absolutely essential to protect the base of the bullet with an OP Wad, or a filler of some kind. See Garbe's Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Reloading Manual for great insights in how to make tack drivers out of Black Powder rifles. He has a couple of rifles capable of shooting 5-shot groups at 200 yds that go 2 1/2 " or less, using a tang peep sight.

 

[windwalker_au]

The flip up sight is for longer ranged shots. You have the time to do so because you are far enough from the game that it is not worried about your presence, even if it does see you. The shorter, fixed sight is used on those close shots, which could be needed very quickly if you have a charging, lion, or elephant, or rhino, or cape buffalo. The whole reason for the double rifles were to give the hunter a second quick round in the event of a charge. The flip up is rarely used, and then for the first shot. It can be quickly flipped down before the second and closer shot in the event of a charge.

I have seen and held one of the Kodiak guns, at a gun show years ago, and I believe it was one of the early ones. It is a heavy gun which you want in these much larger calibers. Its not the lightest gun to take into the field, however, and I would buy a better gun if all I was going to hunt is whitetail deer. As one owner has already observed, a .58 Round Ball killed a moose like he hit it with a train. When you are throwing out that much lead, its very hard to see the need for a conical, except for long range shooting. That is not the kind of hunting these guns are designed to do well.

If you choose to buy one and use conicals, Protect that bullet's base with an OP wad. That is about the only way you are going to get any accuracy with them. ( This is a lesson learned anew by the BPCSA members, shooting their Sharps replica rifles out to 500 yds. and further. With the huge load of compacted FFFg powder in those big casings, its absolutely essential to protect the base of the bullet with an OP Wad, or a filler of some kind. See Garbe's Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Reloading Manual for great insights in how to make tack drivers out of Black Powder rifles. He has a couple of rifles capable of shooting 5-shot groups at 200 yds that go 2 1/2 " or less, using a tang peep sight.

the two rear sights fold down on the muzzeloader doubles not just one,one is for the rite barrel and one is for the left barrel see pic"s
bernie :thumbsup:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Thank you for the tip. That was not the kind of sights that were on the original Kodiak Rifles, and I have not seen one of these new ones with double rear sights. Are you saying that if the sites are not " flipped " up, there is no rear sight on the gun to use to line either barrel? Wow! I guess you have to weld one of those up to be sure you have a sight in case you are charged unexpectedly.

 

[windwalker_au]

paul what a lot of the guys do here is fit the sight from the Kodiak Mark IV catridge double they have the proper express sight heres a pic of the
mark 1V they find that they shoot to the same point of aim at about 70 yds so the mark 1V sight
is a much beter sight it has one fixed and two folding far beter qualty.some even fit the fiber optic sight made for the double muzzeloader.
bernie :thumbsup:

 

[paulvallandigham]

The rear sight shown in your picture is similar to the one I remember seeing on the Kodiak Rifle I examined at the gun show years ago. Fiber optic front sight inserts were not available then, of course. I would want to use that better rear sight on the gun if I were shooting it. I could care less about the plastic front sights. The problem I have found when having students shoot those sights under a timed shooting event is that the tend to look only at the front sight, and fail to get it down into the notch of the rear sight before firing, shooting high, and over the top of their target. The further away the target, the bigger the miss! I have not had a student use those big front sites in conjunction with a ghost ring sight, but I suspect that students would have better accuracy on those quick snap shots.

 

[MercerLake]

:v The newer Pedersoli doubles have two separate flip-up sights mounted on the rib. They appear to be a pair of Williams flip-ups that are each adjustable for elevation and windage.
I have a Kodiak .72 and I found that for me the sights were uncomfortably high. I didn't want to flip sights for each barrel. So I mounted a lower front sight and removed the rib mounted sight base and soldered a single fixed rear sight to the rib.
My left & right barrels shoot to the same POI within an inch or two at 50 yards with 100-120 grains of FFg, an OP wad, and a PRB. Every gun can have a different "personality" due to the alignment of the barrels at time of manufacture. Since each barrel is offset from the centerline of the rifle and has a converging angle so that somewhere out front the projectiles may converge, movement during recoil and dwell time in the barrel affects where the muzzle is actually pointed when the projectile leaves the muzzle. To get the left/right POI's to coincide, typically if the barrels are cross firing the charge needs to be increased. If the Left barrel POI is to the left of the Right barrel POI, then the charge needs to be reduced. Once the left/right problem is resolved one can worry about the vertical differences of POI if any. I used to have a Kodiak .54 and could never get it to regulate without different powder loads in each barrel and that seemed to defeat the idea of being able to reload rapidly if necessary. My .72 has good vertical alignment of the left/right barrels so all I had to find was the right load to regulate the Left/Right POI. Accuracy is about what you can resolve with your sights at a particular distance.
Good luck and have fun as none of this will last forever! :v

 

[windwalker_au]

:v The newer Pedersoli doubles have two separate flip-up sights mounted on the rib. They appear to be a pair of Williams flip-ups that are each adjustable for elevation and windage.
I have a Kodiak .72 and I found that for me the sights were uncomfortably high. I didn't want to flip sights for each barrel. So I mounted a lower front sight and removed the rib mounted sight base and soldered a single fixed rear sight to the rib.
My left & right barrels shoot to the same POI within an inch or two at 50 yards with 100-120 grains of FFg, an OP wad, and a PRB. Every gun can have a different "personality" due to the alignment of the barrels at time of manufacture. Since each barrel is offset from the centerline of the rifle and has a converging angle so that somewhere out front the projectiles may converge, movement during recoil and dwell time in the barrel affects where the muzzle is actually pointed when the projectile leaves the muzzle. To get the left/right POI's to coincide, typically if the barrels are cross firing the charge needs to be increased. If the Left barrel POI is to the left of the Right barrel POI, then the charge needs to be reduced. Once the left/right problem is resolved one can worry about the vertical differences of POI if any. I used to have a Kodiak .54 and could never get it to regulate without different powder loads in each barrel and that seemed to defeat the idea of being able to reload rapidly if necessary. My .72 has good vertical alignment of the left/right barrels so all I had to find was the right load to regulate the Left/Right POI. Accuracy is about what you can resolve with your sights at a particular distance.
Good luck and have fun as none of this will last forever! :v

this is a couple of pics of the kodiak in the december 1985 muzzleloading hunter it says made by trail guns armory tx it was not made by them they have always bin made by pedesoli they just made them for trail guns armory tx the one in the pic has the two rear sights the MK 1 had the one fixed two flip ups but for some reason they stoped fitting them probebly to keep cost down with two rear sights no need to regulate the barrels.
bernie :thumbsup:

 

[cordite]

On my 72 I removed the silly double rear sights. There is only one screw holding it on and it looks fine with a plug screw in the hole. I then mounted a TC peep sight between the hammers. No regrets!

 

[mike alexandre]

after speaking to our local supplier, he sent over both of these sights. Unfortunately the fibre optic was a USA 410 for a breechloader and the base of the rear site was intended to fit a hex barrel so its gone back. The second sight in the picture( 3 leave flip up) is not intended to fit on my Ped double either. As can be seen on the pic it has a slot dovetail fitting which cant be used on the center rib.
so looks like I'm stuck again - I dont want to go down the route of fitting a peep sight.
Any other ideas out there

 

[windwalker_au]

after speaking to our local supplier, he sent over both of these sights. Unfortunately the fibre optic was a USA 410 for a breechloader and the base of the rear site was intended to fit a hex barrel so its gone back. The second sight in the picture( 3 leave flip up) is not intended to fit on my Ped double either. As can be seen on the pic it has a slot dovetail fitting which cant be used on the center rib.
so looks like I'm stuck again - I dont want to go down the route of fitting a peep sight.
Any other ideas out there

justmike if you look at the 3 leaf sight it has a hole in the front part ofthe sight you just drill and countersink for a second screw at the rear of the sight and screw fix it i have seen 3 done this way and work very well,but if you can get your dealer to get the rear sight from the catridge double that is even better.or look at this it would work very well,a good gunsmith could fit this one very easy and the price is rite.
bernie :thumbsup: [url] http://www.jeffsoutfitters.com/store.aspx?panel=3&productid=113&categoryid=67[/url]

 

[mike alexandre]

Thanks WW for your imput. Had a look at the leaf sight and as you say it could be drilled at the back as well but at this stage I dont want to put any extra holes in the gun.
With nothing else to do this morning( the weathers £rap) I had another look at the tang and I've been able to fit to the two rear wood screws a foot for a ladder sight - its in just the right postition aft of the hammers but out of the way of my thumb. For the front sight I've drifted out the Ped insert which is a post with a gold top and fitted a Ped ghost ring - I can now sort out what insert I need for 100yds.
Should be testing next week weather depending and I'll do what Old Ford said - adjust the sights for the left barrel and the powder load for the right. Thanks again.

 

[mike alexandre]

Well things have moved on a bit. I've fitted a Ped sight USA 444 to the footplate of the front sight which gives me a nice high sight picture and interchangeable inserts. I've fitted something similar to a USA 404 ladder sight to the rear which needed only minor changes to fit the existing screws on the tang. Results so far are a much better sight picture which my eyes can cope with. As for target scores so far with a prb using 65g of ff both barrels are calpable of holding the 7 ring of a six inch target at 50yds with no adjustment needed for the second barrel. However I'm still not happy with the conical at either 50 or 100yds.
With a 1.47 twist rate and a 28 9/16" barrel length it seems to me important to not put too much powder behind either prb or conical, with loads in the region of 60 to 80g being good starting figures. Christiian and others have quoted powder loads of up to 120g. It also seems that this gun needs to cleaned between each shot irrespective of what lube I put on the conical. Any thoughts please.