Paper Patch Bullets

[cannonball1]

I would like to resurrect an old topic of PP bullets. Four or five years ago the subject of the "CHASE" method of paper patching was discussed. Several said they were going to try it. I know of one top shooter who uses it. I never heard any responses from the forum and would really like to hear some.
Are there any others of you who have tried it and would like to discuss whether or not it worked for you? It would be interesting on what you found.

 

[BeardedGunsmith]

Paper patched or paper cartridges?

 

[cannonball1]

muzzleloaders only please, if any. I know they maybe few and far between. I know of one that is a top LRML match shooter. I was only hoping to find others who would be using the Chase Method and be willing to comment good or bad.

 

[ResearchPress]

I would like to resurrect an old topic of PP bullets. Four or five years ago the subject of the "CHASE" method of paper patching was discussed. . . . . .

My understanding was that the Chase method of paper patching originated in the late 1880's and was developed for breech-seating of cartridge rifles. It comprised of a single wrap of paper with the ends butting together, and the edge of the paper flush with the base of the bullet. With no overlap of paper at the base of the bullet, my concern with muzzle loaders is the risk of pushing the bullet through the paper on loading, leaving a loose paper in the bore and the risk of leading from the 'naked' bullet. It is for this reason that I have not tried it in my long range muzzle loading match rifles.

Have you tried it?

David

 

[cannonball1]

After reading, watching, and gleaning all I could about the onion skin double patch bullets the best groups where with the single patch "Chase Method" bullet. I size the bare bullet, make my single patch with (.035) 20# rag copy paper wrap. The loading procedure is this: Powder on a dirty barrel, a hard thin vegetable, or moly patch, slightly moist cleaning patch backed up with a dry patch. Then the wrapped bullet which goes down with very slight pressure. If the patch is too tight, yes it will rip the paper, but I don't have that problem. LEADING - I don't have that problem either and have pretty good groups being an old person with cataracts. Just wish someone else (with young eyes) on the forum would get serious and use the same process.

 

[cannonball1]

Clarification - I have three fast twist barrels and use two different weights of paper. It is not hard to find 18#, 20#, and 24# copy paper and anywhere in between with calipers or just resize the bullets.

 

[ResearchPress]

After reading, watching, and gleaning all I could about the onion skin double patch bullets the best groups were with the single patch "Chase Method" bullet. . . . . . the wrapped bullet which goes down with very slight pressure. If the patch is too tight, yes it will rip the paper, but I don't have that problem. . . . . .

‘Chase Method’ though was for breech seating cartridge rifles - so when you say “best groups” are you comparing muzzle and breech loader? By the time the Chase method was seeing use (at least insofar as UK target shooting timeline) muzzle loading rifles had been replaced by breech loaders.

I am very familiar with loading and management of the British match rifle with double wrap paper patch bullets. My reluctance to try the Chase patching is not to do with ripping the paper, but the possibility / probability of just pushing the bullet through the wrap that is a simple band of paper around the bullet and does not overlap the base. When the wrap extends below the base and is folded over that gives some ‘security’ in keeping the wrap and bullet together in loading a muzzle loader - but that is not what Chase did.

In the Chase method, the patch tube was inserted in the bullet-seater, squared up, then the bullet inserted into the seater. The whole was then placed in the chamber, and the patch and bullet seated into the barrel to the required depth. I’m curious how you manage this with a muzzle loader.

David

 

[cannonball1]

Easily rectified and I have done both. A little white glue on the middle of the end is the best way, but the other way is start the hard .060 wad barely into the barrel, then the bullet immediately on top of the wad pushing them down at the same time. Yes, if there is too much drag I'm sure it would pull off. The glued end type will NOT. It is not "if it" works, but it works so much better and so much more accurate for me than the double roll patches. There are a very few top shooters who use this method. I mean Muzzleloader shooters who use this method and I am not referring to cartridge shooters. I deleted the pictures from my computer, but on one of my other older posts it shows pictures of the bullet with the wrap on.

By the way it does overlap the base so you do not see any of the end of the bullet. They are all tucked over just like the double wrap.

 

[cannonball1]

Photos of the process, patches, and bullet is on Percussion Rifles and the post dated 12/10/2017, by Vgorilla, , Paper Patch Bullets, Page 2, my Post 39 and i really do not care about the name just the single wrap accuracy.

 

[ResearchPress]

. . . . . i really do not care about the name just the single wrap accuracy.

OK, that's the confusion on my part, given your original post emphasis of "the subject of the "CHASE" method of paper patching" - I thought you cared. Whilst I have been pondering the Chase patch, you've been talking about simply reducing the common double wrap to a single wrap, which is not the Chase method.

My bullet is a good fit with a double wrap and no sizing. (Unless I bought a new mould) to go to a single wrap I'd have to use thicker paper, which sort of defeats the object and may not be sheared cleanly by the rifling. I don't use glue as you suggest; I want (and get) the patch to separate from the bullet as it exits the barrel. Glue to me is just another variable I don't need. For now I am content with the accuracy I get (have won matches, set national records, and have international medals). Right now the best tuning I could do is me - with more range time and training!

David

 

[cannonball1]

OK! You sound like you are the only subscriber to this forum. Don't want do it, that is fine. No skin off my nose. I know there is one subscriber on this forum who uses this "Chase" or whatever. He is also a top shooter. The reason I went to this method is I could not get a group with the double wrap. The single wrap worked great. Probably something I am doing wrong with the double wrap.

Anyway, from comments, some of the other forum members have made, they might try it, so in light of that, this discussion is for them, not you There is one thing certain, I am not a competition shooter and never will be, but people who never try anything new, never learn anything, and I have gleaned a lot of information from a lot of people thru the years. A lot of information came from this forum.

 

[SDSmlf]

Photos of the process, patches, and bullet is on Percussion Rifles and the post dated 12/10/2017, by Vgorilla, , Paper Patch Bullets, Page 2, my Post 39 and i really do not care about the name just the single wrap accuracy.

Appears what you are wanting to discuss is a single layer paper patched bullet. Personally, I tried the D. L. F. Chase method for breech loaders (have an article somewhere around here from the NRA American Riflemen published in the early 1970s that goes over the method) in a muzzleloader and as described was a complete failure. With paper only on the OD of the bullet (paper was flush with the bullet base) the paper wouldn’t say in place unless paper and bullet were significantly under bore size. Also tried a variation of the single wrap with it covering the bullet base. Still had to use a reduced overall OD for the paper patch to consistently stay in place. I did not try the spot of glue as you mentioned, because I had already had slightly larger groups and occasional flyers when I applied glue to hold paper on double wrapped bullets. Saw the glue as an unnecessary variable.

I have been shooting paper patched bullets for 10-15 years and not an expert. I shoot a lot out to 300 yards, occasionally out to 500. I don’t have a real accuracy setup. Early on I did testing with a scope on a GM LRH barrel in 45 caliber. Settled on a 400+/- grain cast bullet with a 40:1 alloy (pure lead never got the best accuracy, speculated it was the sharpness of the bullet base to the diameter). Using vintage #9 pound 100% cotton onion skin paper and sized for an easy load in GM LRH barrels. The paper is cut so there is no knot or lump of it on the bullet base. I use no lubricant. I size with the paper on the bullet and use an adjustable sizing die and the paper stays in place without needing to be initially wet. Found the single wrap method a PIA and it never showed indications that it would be more accurate for me in my guns. I am pushing the bullets to 1400-1500 FPS with 80-90 grains of fff Swiss with a .50 diameter felt wad (.125” thick) over the powder. With a securely mounted test scope sub MOA groups were a regular occurrence. Iron sights, not very often. Which is more than fine with me for hunting. It’s also nice to ring the 300 yard steel when there is an audience of modern CF shooters.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

I have Chase patched for cartridge rifles a number of times, but have used the technique on a muzzleloader only once.

The rifle is a .54 caliber picket rifle made by shop of William Billinghurst. It was their shop rifle, which means it was used for trying out all sorts of things. Owned by a friend, I had the opportunity to use it in a match for original rifles at Canal Fulton a few years back.

The bullet was cast and swaged of pure pb, and was patched with freezer wrap paper with the slick side loaded toward the bore. No lubrication was applied to the patch.

The bullet was wrapped with the patch, one turn with both ends of the patch touching each other: no overlap whatsoever. The bullet was wrapped with the patch, placed in the end of the loading muzzle with my fingers and loaded past the choke with a simple piston guide starter.

The patched bullet was then rammed home with the loading rod, riding the lands down to the breech.

It was really simple to do, and results at the target were excellent. Slug rifles are usually more accurate at 40 rods (and more) than picket rifles but this one, Chase patched would give them a run for their money methinks.

Here are a few photos of the rifle. I do not have any photos of loading it though. The last photp is of me smiling because the rifle was an awful lot of fun to shoot.

 

[cannonball1]

Smilf and Miltie, Interesting stuff. My first attempts were not successful. I had to make a fold on the back that covered the whole back of the bullet. Freezer paper did not work for me. This is just sabot like, made out of .035 paper which is basically 20# copy paper. A little harder than pure lead is better.

 

[SDSmlf]

This is just sabot like, made out of .035 paper which is basically 20# copy paper.

Doesn’t sound much like paper patching. The vintage #9 pound 100% cotton onion skin paper I am using is right around .002” thick. .035” is thicker than some of cardboard I use for cards in my shotguns.

 

[cannonball1]

Sorry wrong decimal place.

 

[ResearchPress]

I have Chase patched for cartridge rifles a number of times, but have used the technique on a muzzleloader only once.

The rifle is a .54 caliber picket rifle made by shop of William Billinghurst. It was their shop rifle, which means it was used for trying out all sorts of things. Owned by a friend, I had the opportunity to use it in a match for original rifles at Canal Fulton a few years back. . . .

An interesting rifle. I always find it fascinating how target rifles developed so differently between US and UK. Such rifles don’t feature here in the UK; long range muzzle loading match rifles did not exceed 10lb in weight and were generally around .45 bore. We still get a good number of originals on the range. Whilst some came with false muzzles, these were for protection from wear by loading and cleaning rods, rather than assisting in loading. Paper patched bullets were used, including such as Whitworth with mechanical fit bullets, or later types with hardened cylindrical bullets in Metford’s shallow groove rifling.

David