Ottoman Guns

[rickystl]

Thanks Cyten for the additional cool photos. The last photo - yes, the lock plate never drilled or tapped for mounting. Those are rare to come by. Collectors often refer to this lock as the Bulgarian lock for simplicity in discussions. Likely the loose term coming from this lock being most often seen on Boyliyas. So it is thought that the original lock pattern was developed in Bulgaria.
Here is the only Bulgarian lock I own. It's mostly complete, but has seen a lot of use and is in poor condition now.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

whelp, I just found ottoman guns are available at European auctions for 1/4 the price in the US. This may cause me to do something really stupid...

Hermann has a very nice looking Tüfek coming up, but it cannot be shipped out of the EU.

 

[cyten]

Thanks Cyten for the additional cool photos. The last photo - yes, the lock plate never drilled or tapped for mounting. Those are rare to come by. Collectors often refer to this lock as the Bulgarian lock for simplicity in discussions. Likely the loose term coming from this lock being most often seen on Boyliyas. So it is thought that the original lock pattern was developed in Bulgaria.
Here is the only Bulgarian lock I own. It's mostly complete, but has seen a lot of use and is in poor condition now.

Rick

EVERY collector here in Bulgaria assures me that the Boyliya and this lock were only ever produced in the city of Sliven. This coincides with an old book I picked up here.

Book refers to them as “Slivenska Pushka” which translates to Rifle of Sliven. Bobi explained that the brass plating was to protect from rust from priming powder.

whelp, I just found ottoman guns are available at European auctions for 1/4 the price in the US. This may cause me to do something really stupid...

Hermann has a very nice looking Tüfek coming up, but it cannot be shipped out of the EU.

This is the case when it is good to have friends all over. Unfortunately Armenia isn’t in the EU…



I wanted to also let those who are interested know, I have been introduced to a friend through Bobi here who is making many parts from casting originals just like the rifle shoppe.

He also makes them complete.

These are just a couple examples, however he makes many parts for many different guns, Snider/Springfield/Russian/Breechloaders etc. he doesn’t have a website but I can put people in contact or help with communication in private messages.

 

[TobJohn]

EVERY collector here in Bulgaria assures me that the Boyliya and this lock were only ever produced in the city of Sliven. This coincides with an old book I picked up here.
View attachment 226548
Book refers to them as “Slivenska Pushka” which translates to Rifle of Sliven. Bobi explained that the brass plating was to protect from rust from priming powder.



This is the case when it is good to have friends all over. Unfortunately Armenia isn’t in the EU…



I wanted to also let those who are interested know, I have been introduced to a friend through Bobi here who is making many parts from casting originals just like the rifle shoppe.
View attachment 226553
View attachment 226554
He also makes them complete.
View attachment 226555
View attachment 226556
These are just a couple examples, however he makes many parts for many different guns, Snider/Springfield/Russian/Breechloaders etc. he doesn’t have a website but I can put people in contact or help with communication in private messages.

I have family in London, so I was considering how cost effective it would be to buy something from the upcoming Olympia auction, have them pick it up, then mail it. Unfortunately, England had to do the dumb thing and leave the EU, so that is not an option for a lot of the Hermann guns.

Does your new friend make complete guns, or only various parts?

 

[cyten]

I have family in London, so I was considering how cost effective it would be to buy something from the upcoming Olympia auction, have them pick it up, then mail it. Unfortunately, England had to do the dumb thing and leave the EU, so that is not an option for a lot of the Hermann guns.

Does your new friend make complete guns, or only various parts?

He does restorations of originals and sells them. Here is one he’s currently working on, I’m unsure of the work he’s done here.

 

[TobJohn]

He does restorations of originals and sells them. Here is one he’s currently working on, I’m unsure of the work he’s done here.View attachment 226567

Okay, word. I will PM you for his info.

 

[Sam squanch]

Great!!! If your friend will cast a SPANISH miquelet lock, he will get a lot of business! I’ll contact you when and if I can save any $$$, almost an impossibility for me ……

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

AWESOME info and input Cyten! It is also great to have Bobi here now with his knowledge too!

 

[TobJohn]

AWESOME info and input Cyten! It is also great to have Bobi here now with his knowledge too!

Seconded. It great to have another artist join our community!

 

[rickystl]

Seconded. It great to have another artist join our community!

I THIRD that !!!!

 

[rickystl]

whelp, I just found ottoman guns are available at European auctions for 1/4 the price in the US. This may cause me to do something really stupid...

Hermann has a very nice looking Tüfek coming up, but it cannot be shipped out of the EU.

The reason for the lower prices is that the auction houses virtually eliminate any bidders from the entire USA market from bidding on complete guns. This keeps the prices down. The two big auction houses Hermann Historica (Germany) and Czerny's (Italy) usually have 3-4 big auctions each year. If you are at the auction itself and you win a bid for say an Ottoman tufek, there is no problem with you being able to pay for the gun and walk out with it. The problem is trying to find a shipper that will ship it to the USA. Even though their are no Country/Local regulations against it, the shipper can and do have their own regulations. Just hearing the term rifle/musket/etc. send them in convulsions. And if you do by chance find a shipper that will ship, they will charge you the equivalent of your first born.

I have in the past bought items from both of the above auctions. But only locks and accessories. That way they can ship by regular, local postal service. But even then, you want to buy at a good price because of all the extra "juice" added to the price of the item: Buyer's premium, VATT taxes, local taxes, historic fee (Italy), packing, shipping, etc., etc. It can easily double the price of the item. So keep this in mind while bidding.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

The reason for the lower prices is that the auction houses virtually eliminate any bidders from the entire USA market from bidding on complete guns. This keeps the prices down. The two big auction houses Hermann Historica (Germany) and Czerny's (Italy) usually have 3-4 big auctions each year. If you are at the auction itself and you win a bid for say an Ottoman tufek, there is no problem with you being able to pay for the gun and walk out with it. The problem is trying to find a shipper that will ship it to the USA. Even though their are no Country/Local regulations against it, the shipper can and do have their own regulations. Just hearing the term rifle/musket/etc. send them in convulsions. And if you do by chance find a shipper that will ship, they will charge you the equivalent of your first born.

I have in the past bought items from both of the above auctions. But only locks and accessories. That way they can ship by regular, local postal service. But even then, you want to buy at a good price because of all the extra "juice" added to the price of the item: Buyer's premium, VATT taxes, local taxes, historic fee (Italy), packing, shipping, etc., etc. It can easily double the price of the item. So keep this in mind while bidding.

Rick

Yeah, very good point. I have been noticing that when scrolling through some of the available options. It looks like Hermann does have some infrastructure for shipping to the US, but Olympia was a fat “no”.

International shipping options are also a huge pain, as you said. I’ve looked up options for a pair of guns I’m buying from another one of our resident masters, and the prices ranged from $300-$1500, with only a couple companies actually allowing anything vaguely gun shaped. A couple even listed stage props and air soft guns as banned!
Locks are a good call because I see Czerny always has a couple and for an okay price.

Rock Island Auctions always seems to have non western muzzleloaders go for way less than gunbroker, guns international, and Fagan arms, so I am keeping my eye out for what gets listed in the next premier auction.

 

[rickystl]

I have family in London, so I was considering how cost effective it would be to buy something from the upcoming Olympia auction, have them pick it up, then mail it. Unfortunately, England had to do the dumb thing and leave the EU, so that is not an option for a lot of the Hermann guns.

Does your new friend make complete guns, or only various parts?

A few years ago I purchased a percussion musket in non-working condition from a dealer in London. This was before the EU separation. The dealer was bull-headed and would not deliver it to the shipper. Nor would the shipper pick it up from the dealer. Fortunately, by coincidence, a Canadian business associate of mine was visiting his parents in London at the time. So he picked up the musket and delivered it to the shipper. At that time, there were only 4 shippers in the UK that were "licensed" to ship firearms out of the UK to the USA. Those firearms being "original antique" muzzle loaders - only. No replicas. By the time I picked up the musket from the U.S. Customs at my local airport the price of the musket doubled. And I had a 1/4" stack of paperwork. I will never try to get another complete gun from the UK again. It's simply not worth the hassle. But I don't know the current situation there.

By the way, there are shippers in various countries in the EU that won't even ship swords.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

A few years ago I purchased a percussion musket in non-working condition from a dealer in London. This was before the EU separation. The dealer was bull-headed and would not deliver it to the shipper. Nor would the shipper pick it up from the dealer. Fortunately, by coincidence, a Canadian business associate of mine was visiting his parents in London at the time. So he picked up the musket and delivered it to the shipper. At that time, there were only 4 shippers in the UK that were "licensed" to ship firearms out of the UK to the USA. Those firearms being "original antique" muzzle loaders - only. No replicas. By the time I picked up the musket from the U.S. Customs at my local airport the price of the musket doubled. And I had a 1/4" stack of paperwork. I will never try to get another complete gun from the UK again. It's simply not worth the hassle. But I don't know the current situation there.

By the way, there are shippers in various countries in the EU that won't even ship swords.

Rick

I’m pretty sure England has/had stricter regulations than the EU, so probably no better now. That sounds like a huge pain.

A big issue I’ve found is that muzzleloaders are so niche, it’s hard to find the actual laws and definitions for them in other countries.

There is a German gun builder I am planning on buying from, which will all depend on shipping costs.

 

[rickystl]

I don't think Germany is as strict as Italy. But I've heard they are trending that way. The problem in the UK is the government regulations. I think their own police are still not able to pack. Unless it's a SWAT team. Most of the rest of the EU it's the shippers that are the problem.
France use to be no problem. But I don't know now. Years ago I purchased a couple of guns at different times from collectors in France. They boxed/packed up the items well and shipped it by regular Postal Service. They were both at my doorstep in a little over one week.
They were considered antiques and not regulated. But I would be cautious now.

Will be interesting the feedback you get from Germany.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

I don't think Germany is as strict as Italy. But I've heard they are trending that way. The problem in the UK is the government regulations. I think their own police are still not able to pack. Unless it's a SWAT team. Most of the rest of the EU it's the shippers that are the problem.
France use to be no problem. But I don't know now. Years ago I purchased a couple of guns at different times from collectors in France. They boxed/packed up the items well and shipped it by regular Postal Service. They were both at my doorstep in a little over one week.
They were considered antiques and not regulated. But I would be cautious now.

Will be interesting the feedback you get from Germany.

Rick

Yeah, the definition of antique seems to be the main problem. Luckily, the German gunsmith has shipped to the US before, so hopefully he knows how to handle it.

 

[rickystl]

It might be worth Boli (with Cyten's assistance) investigating if a complete gun can be shipped from Bulgaria to the USA. Or one shipped from the USA to Bulgaria for restoration and return.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

The pre-flintlock community needs to crowdfund some sort of Co-op importer for Europe lol.

 

[PhDBrewer]

I have had no issues getting things to the US. It is just getting expensive. Attached is Czerny's policies for shipping internationally. There are new antiquities laws in Italy with new fees & paperwork.
UPS just delivered multiple antique flintlock pistols, bladed items, & locks. Shipped next day priority air. Was held up for 2 days in US customs. Other than not repacking anything properly (US Customs)... it all arrived.
I find it best to ship items to our address in Germany and bring it back in checked luggage. Customs is easier and I can ensure it is packed correctly.
I have only dealt with antique items and not reproduction firearms.
Time to go and bring home some original wheellocks my wonderful wife got me for my birthday!!
William

 

[rickystl]

Those locks and castings are great. Wish I would have known a few years ago. LOL

Rick