Original Hawken Photos

[Patched]

I took these pictures of some photos I snapped of some original Hawken rifles I was handling and measured.
I thought I’d share them here…the photos were taken in the late 70s…this J&S Hawken loooked to me to be Jake’s work.
I don’t know if these guns appear elsewhere in print but I’ve never seen them any where but taped to the inside cover of my Baird book.

 

[Patched]

Here’s a Sam Hawken rifle…photos same place and date as the first gun.
I thought it odd that both guns had flat-wrist trigger guards when John Baird kept telling me about oval scroll guards in the book and I’m holding flat guards…

 

[deerstalkert]

you sir owe me a keyboard! i will never ger the drool out of this one!
thank you for sharing.

 

[Bighorserider]

Wow. Great pics. I want a gun like the first one.

 

[The Crisco Kid]

Yes, thank you for posting the pictures. I handled 3 or 4 Hawkens back in the '70's but I was too slow witted to photograph them. Sure do wish I had. I had a couple of back action Goulcher locks in those days. I built a rifle that I sold around one and sold the other. I didn't know that the Hawkens used Goulcher locks. I think the spelling of Golcher is different than on the locks I had but it's been quite awhile so I could be wrong.

 

[Patched]

Yes, thank you for posting the pictures. I handled 3 or 4 Hawkens back in the '70's but I was too slow witted to photograph them. Sure do wish I had. I had a couple of back action Goulcher locks in those days. I built a rifle that I sold around one and sold the other. I didn't know that the Hawkens used Goulcher locks. I think the spelling of Golcher is different than on the locks I had but it's been quite awhile so I could be wrong.

Being the young dumb kid I was at the time I took it for granted that you could walk into an upscale antique store in Carson City and check out the Hawken rifles…to see if you liked the feel of Jake made or a Sam style.
(I preferred the Jake gun…those sights aligned themselves when I shouldered it…as I recall) both were for sale at the time.

 

[ord sgt]

The Museum of the West in Cody, Wyoming has a Samuel Hawken rifle on display. The description says it belonged to "Liver Eatin" Johnson. I tried to take pictures through the glass case, but they turned out poorly.

 

[Patched]

This is the Hawken rifle (the gun architecture) that I admire and covet. I believe this is strictly Jacob on the chisels…because it’s similar to another rifle, both with a more late “golden age” Hagerstown MD styling more in line with what a gunsmith son was taught by his gunsmith father.

Here’s that other rifle…(sorry only picture I have but I do have full scale blueprint)

I love the softer round flow of the comb to the wrist and especially the slight subtle taper of the thick to thin as the wrist meets the rear of the lock panel…Jake made these rifle lines flow together with grace.

In my original post above, notice the distinct kink in both guns at the buttplate as it meets the comb line…that’s a sign of either a repair (new buttplate?) a shortening or an amateur doing the work. ( fitting buttplates tight and right is tough with all that visible contact surface exposed for all the world to see.)

 

[Mtman725]

Thanks good info.

 

[French Colonial]

This is the Hawken rifle (the gun architecture) that I admire and covet. I believe this is strictly Jacob on the chisels…because it’s similar to another rifle, both with a more late “golden age” Hagerstown MD styling more in line with what a gunsmith son was taught by his gunsmith father.View attachment 115412
Here’s that other rifle…(sorry only picture I have but I do have full scale blueprint)View attachment 115413
View attachment 115414
I love the softer round flow of the comb to the wrist and especially the slight subtle taper of the thick to thin as the wrist meets the rear of the lock panel…Jake made these rifle lines flow together with grace.

In my original post above, notice the distinct kink in both guns at the buttplate as it meets the comb line…that’s a sign of either a repair (new buttplate?) a shortening or an amateur doing the work. ( fitting buttplates tight and right is tough with all that visible contact surface exposed for all the world to see.)

WHAT!!!!

Are you saying that there was a full stock, Flintlock Hawken rifle!!!!

That will cause some fireworks here pretty soon.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I have a pic of former member here, Squire Robin from England, holding an original Hawken when he came here to ml hunt with me and friends in 2011. There is another in a museum near Branson, MO.

 

[Patched]

WHAT!!!!

Are you saying that there was a full stock, Flintlock Hawken rifle!!!!

That will cause some fireworks here pretty soon.

I’m not saying that at all…but my 20 year old Hawken Shop brochure from whence this picture was lifted apparently alludes to something of that effect.
The lockplate in the picture has all the “right” flintlock holes plugged with a drum and nipple above it…
I’m familiar with that over bloated Hawken firestorm discussion…relitigate it if you want…
but I’m pretty confident that Jacob Hawken, the son of a gunsmith, a career gunsmith himself feeding his family for years before the widespread use of the percussion cap, made flintlock full stock rifles with his name on them in his new hometown of St Louis in1815 shortly after his arrival.

 

[Christophero]

Another "Thanks for posting" reply. Much to enjoy from your posts.

When I run a long straight edge along the barrel of my T/C Hawkins out over the buttstock it show 2 3/4" fall to the top of the butt plate and 7" to the bottom. The Lyman GPR is approximately 3 1/2" and 8 1/4" respectively. In modern rifles that is called the drop at the comb, but not sure if that is the same terminology on old muzzleloaders. The two rifles in your original post, when the brothers were building plains rifles in St. Louis, have certainly less drop than the full length J. Hawkin 36 caliber from years before. Not sure from the photos if the top two are close to the measurements on today's 'replicas' but I imagine it isn't too far off. The transformation over the years in style is readily apparent. Less wood used, more blanks out of a slab of wood, better recoil transfer in a straighter stock with the larger calibers normally used in the western regions. They recognized the need of their times and fulfilled it impressively.

Thanks again for sharing.

 

[Patched]

Christophero
I agree with you…those Hawken kids most likely learned gun making under their father, following a relatively rigid local “gun school“ style perhaps displayed in the two J.Hawken rifle pictures.

After Lewis and Clark returned east, things changed fast..old school “golden age” Rococo gun embellishments gave way to straighter style half-stocks, percussion ignition, shorter barrels and rifled big bores for accurate ”long” distance shots.

The mass of humanity funneling through St Louis grabbing the necessities of travel and survival poised the Hawken kids to make the guns with features the customer deemed essential…(those Harper’s Ferry guns did well out west and Jake took note of that some years prior.)

John Baird may have done the whole Hawken story a great disservice by steering the narrative to place Hawken products in way more hands of early fur trade era mountain men than reality supports…and Baird desired the flintlock Hawken “mountain rifle” to be in existence…(yes there was/is unmentionable purist pressure to shoot traditional flint ignition)…
My apologies to Baird but half stocks, English style patent breeches and percussion caps are pretty much most of the St Louis Hawken story…timed just as fur trapping was replaced by gold/land rushes and Indian wars.