Original Bowie Knife?

[faw3]

Cant wait to see what youn got ...oh its the Bowie i thought it was beer , just kideding Im just 16 and dont plan on doing that when I can . dad really cant wait to get out and cheack these out , he's still guessing a English 1800s knife , what did it cost if you dont mind telling. blaine

 

[sledgemeister]

Good news on the blade smokey.
Natalie rang today about midday whilst I was trying to sleep, wife took the call, I rang her back later on after the damn Census woman knocked my door down, and couldnt get back to sleep, so at moment I am a tired, grumpy fella with the flue. I digress sorry, I rang her back and she advised something about wanting know if i wanted 25kg of BP, I must admit I was half asleep, But from what my head understood you was getting your 5kg + you was going to get another 10 and she wanted me to take 15kg or arrange people to take up to the 25kg mark.
I will try make a couple calls tomorrow, I wouldnt use 15kg of BP in 10 years i dont reckon LOL

 

[Smokey in Oz]

Guys,
a pic of the two knives,
The Bowie is 10 inches long with a 6 inch blade, stamped on blade 'Original Bowie Knife', unfortunately theres no Sheffield stamp on the ricasso as I hoped. The steel appears to be of reasonable quality. The grips look like bone but I suspect they might be some sort of man made material. Anyone got a non-invasive test to determine bone or not?
I strongly suspect this knife might be one of those 20th century copies of the 'original' Sheffield knives.

The smaller knife is 7&1/2 inches overall with a 3&5/8 inch blade, timber one piece grip with full length tang, peened at the end, blade marked Toledo Steel, Made in Sweden.
I also suspect this knife is not that old, perhaps made in the last 50 years or so aswell. It looks suspiciously like many of the modern Toledo fishing knives sold now with plastic handles.

Your honest opinions on both knives along with a guesstimate of value would be really appreciated.
Smokey. :redface:

 

Ahhh, I tried to tell you about German made cheap bowies....I tried to tell you about the "original bowie knife" stamp on the blades...I hope you did not spend too much money on it. I suspect the little knife is older. I used to have one like the little knife--they have been made for years and were also cheap--but had good steel in them. Get out a hand lens or good magnifying glass and look at the "bone" handles on the "bowie"--look for cell structure that would tell you if it is real bone or if it is plastic. Either way, it looks to be a cheap recent knife--could even be Japanese.

 

[Smokey in Oz]

Thanks Mike,
I feel a little silly now, particularly after the advice. Not to worry, it didn't break the bank, win some-lose some. It's the first auction purchase that I've been caught on, I usually come out well in front.
Caveat Emptor..... Buyer Beware....
Smokey. :redface: :shake:

 

[Wes/Tex]

There'll be fuss & feathers flying forever over what the 'sand bar' knife was or looked like. But, we do know what the knife Jim Bowie carried to Texas looked like since he had Noah Smithwick make 10 copies of it to give out as gifts. Afterwards, Smithwick made a living by making copies to sell himself. A friend actually held one in his hands in 1953 when he visited a serious collector, then living in Austin. Briefly, "...the knife had a blade ten & one-half inch long, two inches wide and a quarter-inch thick. The clip or 'gut-tickler' was three inches long and perfectly straight, not dished. The point was at the center-line of the blade. It had neither fuller nor ricasso. Knife folks know that a fuller is the so-called 'blood-groove' in the blade, which has all sorts of fanciful explanations for existing. In fact, it helps stiffen the blade, in exactly the same manner that a T-shaped bar of iron is stiffer than a flat bar. The ricasso is that little piece between the hilt and the blade that isn't sharpened and usually has the knife-maker's trademark on it.

"It had a perfectly straight iron crossguard, a full tang, and a grip made of two pieces of light colored wood-possibly bois d' arc (Osage Orange or 'Hossapple')-which was fastened with two large rivits. The blade was marked near the guard with a large spread eagle and N. SMITHWICK in capital letters in a semicircle over the eagle. The dimensions of the Smithwick Bowie are identical to the dimensions Wellman gave for the Bowie knife in "The Iron Mistress", which leads me to believe that he probably saw and measured a Smithwick Bowie in the research for the book."

The above was from "Texas Tales Your Teacher Never Told Me" by C.F.Eckhardt, who actually measured the knife in 1953. Noah Smithwick gave the size and shape of the knives he made for Bowie in his book "Evolution of a State" which is still in print from The University Of Texas Press.
Like Charley says, at least we know what the knife Bowie carried to Texas looked like.

 

[faw3]

Oz with out haveing it in hand ect its still up in the air on what you have , the second knife looks very much like my granddads Mora , dont know what hepaid for it but wouldnt of thought of selling it.. as i first said of the first one it can be anything maybe even German , but a million or more came out of Sheffield under maybe a few 100 names , ( im useing my dads 442 page book about the Bowie kife he was writeing for his ? docrate ? and it has 60 some photos and twice that number in drawings . his list of people he asked things about the Bowie is amazeing , and i'll leave it at that . As far as we know what knife Bowie had in Texas , Cepas Ham's knife that i belive is at the Alamo now is as close as any . But hey im a 16 year old kid what would i know ? it seems a few 100 people made that knife to belive the experts. Davy , i'd want the Jesse Perkins of Natchez, Mississippii for that little brawl on the sand bar. teh Musso would of been nice , was it the one with J and B on its ends ? and the Forrest knife , its been for sure known to have been made in the late 1820s sems the only painting of the organal knife that Bowie used is missing for now but maybe someday. blaine

 

But hey im a 16 year old kid what would i know ? blaine

"Blaine"? "16"?

According to your bio, you're much older and your name's "Fred"!

Might you be the "good kid"? :haha:

Ive done a bit of everything till my back failed on a oil rig in 89. Im in constant pain and cant walk, but am working on that, blessed with a good kid thats 16 , and a land lady that lets me shoot muz ls off my back porch out to a 1000 yds. Big on history, Ive got to read a LOT of books the last 15 yrs or so.

 

[davy]

But hey im a 16 year old kid what would i know ? blaine

"Blaine"? "16"?

According to your bio, you're much older and your name's "Fred"!

Might you be the "good kid"? :haha:

Ive done a bit of everything till my back failed on a oil rig in 89. Im in constant pain and cant walk, but am working on that, blessed with a good kid thats 16 , and a land lady that lets me shoot muz ls off my back porch out to a 1000 yds. Big on history, Ive got to read a LOT of books the last 15 yrs or so.

Blaine the man!... Fred's more a than able son! :grin:

Davy

 

[Johnny Tremain]

The Searles bowie is believed to be the first one desgined by the Bowie brothers, and made by George Searles of Baton Rouge LA.

DO a search and you will find all kinds of info on this blade. Resin Bowie gave his to Col Fowler when he left the Alamo. Its still there in a glass case. Jim's is said to be in Sanra Anna's collection, where abouts unkown.

Dixie Gun Works makes a dandy repop. I own one. Best blade and balance Ive ever seen.

 

[LRB]

Johnny, I believe you will find that his name was Daniel, not George Searles. Rezin Bowie gave a fairly detailed decription of the first Bowie, and it was not a Searles. If I remember correctly it was made to Rezins specs, not Jim's, by a blacksmith named Jesse Cliff, or clift who worked for the Bowies, and was no more than a heavy bladed butcher knife, with no outstanding features. I could be wrong, I haven't studied Bowies in many years, but I don't recall any references to Rezin or Fowler ever being at the Alamo. Maybe Fowler could have been, I just have not seen this noted anywhere. I do know Fowler was not there at the battle, because he was assigned to Ft. Mellon in my home town in the 1840's, I believe during the Seminole wars.

 

[faw3]

Ive tryed to see if thats a play with words or on words , its a good one if it is , blaine ( me ) the 16 year old is just watching the sites for my dad Fred while hes in hospital. As for the Bowie thing , 2 things are for sure Bowie was a real person and he had big knife when he was in or went to Texas. even his kin folk dont agree who made what or even what kind of knife. the only painting of the sandbar knife was over a bar and maybe cathouse (can i write that) and long gone , if anyone 200 years old still is alive and remembers this page from history please let us all know , everyone has his or her pick and why , how right they are is something else Even me. blaine

 

The Searles bowie is believed to be the first one desgined by the Bowie brothers, and made by George Searles of Baton Rouge LA.

DO a search and you will find all kinds of info on this blade. Resin Bowie gave his to Col Fowler when he left the Alamo. Its still there in a glass case. Jim's is said to be in Sanra Anna's collection, where abouts unkown.

Dixie Gun Works makes a dandy repop. I own one. Best blade and balance Ive ever seen.

Check out the Bowie discussion on the other thread here. There is much myth and misinformation out there about the Bowie, and everything in your post is incorrect! Searles made some knives for Rezin Bowie to give away as gifts, one of which was the Fowler knife, which although on display at the Alamo, had nothing to do with the Alamo. I personally reconstruct the Bowie knife history as follows brielfy: Jim was a hunter and frontiersman as was his two brothers John and Rezin. All carried "butcher" knives in their day. John retired from that life and became a plantation owner and one of the founders of Helena Arkansas near his farm (and near my family's farm). He said Jim's hunting knife was not over a foot long blade and all, meaning it had less than an 8" blade. I take that as Jim's early knife (pre-sandbar). The Ham knife (a friend of Jim's) may be it or one like it--a plain butcher knife. The myth/legend of the Bowie knife began at the sandbar fight near Natchez in 1827. An eyewitness said the knife was a "big butcher knife". Rezin said he gave the knife to Jim just before the duel that turned into a "melee". He said it was a little over 9" in blade, straight-backed, no guard and plain wood slab handles--and it was made by a blacksmith on his plantation in Louisiana, generally taken to be Jesse Clifft (SP?). The next we hear of a Jim Bowie knife is from the recollections of 94 year old Noah Smithwick, who claims to have "copied" the sandbar knife for Jim after Jim came to Texas. Noah claims that Jim had the sandbar knife rehandled in ivory with silver trim and wanted a plain copy made for rough use as he was retiring the famed knife. Noah did not say whether or not the rehandled knife had a guard. He said his 'copy knives' had blades 10"x2", which does NOT match Rezin's description (9.25"x1.5"). He said they had wood slab handles. If he truly copied the knife, they would not have had clip points, but later writers claimed they had both clip points and guards. Several other knives exist with claims to being Jim Bowie's, but none are documentable and none match the early descriptions. All of the other famous Bowies were REZIN'S! The Perkins knife (ca. 1828) is the oldest dated (1831 gift to Perkins from Rezin)true Bowie, and tellingly, it has NO GUARD and NO CLIP. It has a little over 10" blade and silver mounted blackwood handle. It is like a fancy French chef's knife. It was made in Phila by Shively and likely was an upgrade of the sandbar knife style. It is likely the closest we will ever come to the original Bowie design. James Black of Arkansas figures into many stories, mostly myths, but he was real and did make early Bowies and other knives with a distinctive coffin handle and no guard. He made a knife for Rezin in the early 1830s (1833 gift to a friend). Some of the earliest Sheffield copies of Bowies use a Black knife for a model. Searles of Baton Rouge made several gift knives for Rezin. These were similar to the Perkins knife, but fancier and had half guards. Rezin went blind and had to retire from active life, or he may have been the famous knifeman. All else is myth. The vast majority of so-called Bowie knives out there, old and young, look nothing like the originals. Our 'classic' Bowie ideal is a cartoon Bowie (like the Musso one).