Ol' time cleaning..

[George]

Hawker, Instructions to Young Sportsmen, has a long section on cleaning, ca. 1846.

Spence

 

[fishmusic]

:hatsoff:

 

[Okie Hog]

Zonie and others are spot on. Wrought iron is much more rust resistant than modern steel.

As a kid i often helped a blacksmith, my great uncle.

There is a British firm called The Real Wrought Iron Company. They claim to be the worlds only vendor of real wrought iron. A couple blacksmith friends use their products.

A good book on the subject:

American Iron; 1607-1900 by Robert B. Gordon

 

[George]

Captain James Stewart,
42nd Regiment
Camp at Watsons Ferry
20th September 1761.
Regtl. Orders
"The arms to be made perfectly clean without any greese,the brasses also to be well scoured and the firelocks to be rubbed again in the morning with a dry cloth. The men to beat and brush their coats in the morning. The are to carry their oil cloths for weeking their pans and bayonets, also their brushes for brushing their coats bonnets and shoes, which the non-commissioned officers are to see done, as soon as the men are allowed to rest themselves in the field; the men are to curl their hair and put some powder in it the evening before they go to bed, this will make it dress more easily in the morning, when it is again to be powdered and queued taking care to week the powder off their necks."

[The military never changes. :haha: ]

Orderly book of Col Meredith’s Command of Independent Militia Companies at Hampton near Williamsburg, on home guard:

July 11.th 1776
Parole Hampton
"--each man Provide himself with an oyl Cloth which he is to keep constantly by him to Prevent his Arms from taking rust--The Quarter Master is Directed to make application to thos Persons who may kill any Mutton or Lambs for the Legs, which are to be Served to the Different Companies to oyl the inside of their Locks."

Spence

 

[Loyalist Dave]

It worked ok but, checking for rust was a daily thing.

Clyde hit upon the point that folks having the need for a gun as a hunting tool, without much recourse if they let it degrade, AND because it was also the emergency defense weapon, checked the gun or rifle, often.

So if you're scrubbing out the barrel, then drying it well, perhaps with heat, or perhaps with a bit of spirits, then greasing it or applying sweet oil, you need to check it on a regular basis for rust. Putting it up after an old fashioned cleaning and letting it set for a month, you're probably going to find some problems, unless in very low humidity...perhaps even then.

LD

 

[Okie Hog]

Judging from the condition of the few dozen original muzzleloaders i owned in the 60s and 70s most were neglected. One indication of bore condition was the condition of the breech of the gun. If the breech end was pitted and rusted the bore was trashed. If there was no rust or pitting at the breech the bore was usually in fine shape.

Some of the old guns i owned were stored away well. Metal parts were coated with heavy dried grease and the bores were filled with tallow or unsalted butter. Those guns were rescued from a dumpster by the driver of a garbage truck.

 

[Elnathan]

It worked ok but, checking for rust was a daily thing.

Clyde hit upon the point that folks having the need for a gun as a hunting tool, without much recourse if they let it degrade, AND because it was also the emergency defense weapon, checked the gun or rifle, often.

So if you're scrubbing out the barrel, then drying it well, perhaps with heat, or perhaps with a bit of spirits, then greasing it or applying sweet oil, you need to check it on a regular basis for rust. Putting it up after an old fashioned cleaning and letting it set for a month, you're probably going to find some problems, unless in very low humidity...perhaps even then.

LD

I actually did that - grease a gun with lard and set it aside for a month. Wasn't on purpose, though - I let my 3-1 at home when taking a trip up to see my brand-new niece and shoot with my brothers and then had to start grad school a couple days after returning home, and in the confusion forgot to regrease the bore. Nearly gave me a heart attack when I checked it and the patches came out rust red and it looked like the lock had chickenpox...I was enormously relieved to realize that the red was the lard itself and the metal underneath, where I could check, was quite untouched.

This was in a leaky apartment in southern Mississippi in late July and August...not exactly a dry climate!

I think animal greases work much better than we give them credit for.

 

[Black Hand]

I think animal greases work much better than we give them credit for.

Animal greases worked just fine for several hundred years until recently, when companies figured out they could sell all sorts of useless manure to buyers that had been sold a bill of goods.....

 

[bpd303]

My grandfather, who was born in 1884, and still shooting his flintlock in the late '50s told me a story.
He said the "old timers" would put their barrels in a fast running stream to wash out the fouling and evil spirits from the bore. Don't know if true or not and I've never tried it.

 

[good ole boy]

I too agree that the majority kept their weapons in top notch shape.Heck,they didn,t have computers and T.V.,s to waste their time. :grin:

 

[Black Hand]

I too agree that the majority kept their weapons in top notch shape.

This is a given if we only take into account the standing military. Nothing is certain with the civilian population...

 

[smoothshooter]

Water is a pretty good cleaner. It does not always do a really good job at removing all patch grease residue however, but this is not always a bad thing.
I know from years of personal experience that when I am firing a rifle or smooth bore at least once or twice, every day or two, I can go for 5 to 10 days at a time ( or longer ) without cleaning and don't get any rust in the barrel. It seems that the almost daily passage of a couple of lubed patches or wads in and out of the barrel as they are loaded and fired resets the " corrosion clock " back to zero. I still like to wipe the lock parts daily, but this only takes a few moments.
My point being that back in the day, I suspect sometimes guns were not cleaned as often as most people think, because it may simply not have been necessary.
I also have a Uberti 1851 Navy that I fired approximately 60 times about 3 weeks ago, that has not been cleaned since it was last fired, and was not cleaned during the whole shooting session. I have been keeping an eye on it by checking it daily for any signs of the beginnings of rust, but have found none to date. The last check was 15 minutes ago. I use nothing but Schutzen powder, and make my own lube which is a mixture of cooking oil and beeswax.
I normally am very conscientious about never going to bed at night until any fouled black powder guns have been cleaned, but I was in the mood for a new experiment.
Will probably go ahead and clean it tomorrow night and be done with it.

 

[Vaino]

Have a question.....just what does the soap do when used in water for cleaning a MLer? Or is it just a "mental thing"?

I've never used soap in the water and the bores of my MLers are always rust free.

I use only very hot water which heats the bbl causing the moisture to dry quickly after dry swabbing. Then Oxyoke 1000 Plus is used which melts because of the still hot bbl. When it cools down, a waxy film coats the bore. Used to check the bores after a couple of days, but found no rust so no longer check and a few MLers were "stored" for a couple of yrs w/o any further care and again found no rust. Forgot to mention....a wire brush is used in cleaning so that the fouling in the corners of the grooves is removed.

Also the Oxyoke is used on the gun's exterior, including the stock and also is the patch lube when shooting. It's also a good "Chapstick"......Fred

 

[Black Hand]

Have a question.....just what does the soap do when used in water for cleaning a MLer? Or is it just a "mental thing"?

It serves the same purpose as the dishsoap used to wash dishes. It helps remove greases & oils.

But since there is no tone of voice in posts, I am uncertain whether this is a rhetorical question...

 

[Billnpatti]

Soap or detergent does just as Black Hand said, it serves the same purpose in cleaning your bore as it does in the cleaning process of dishes. Ask yourself why you use soap or detergent to clean your dishes, your clothes and even your body in the shower. It breaks up grease and oils and, by reducing the surface tension of the water, it make it "wetter" so that it removes dirt better. In the final analysis, it just makes cleaning your bore easier and better. I use it. But, it is just an aid to the cleaning process and if you don't want to use it, don't. 'Tain't nothin' says you have to. No points off if you don't. :haha:

 

[George]

Black Hand's question, as sometimes happens, raises more questions.

Black powder burning temperature can reach 2500 degrees Fahrenheit. Most oils will burn at that temperature, so why don't those used in the bore burn completely up? Does anyone have any evidence those nasty oils everyone seems so disturbed by actually remain in the bore after firing?

Is it a bad thing if they do? What bad thing happens because a bit of oil remains in the bore after shooting and after cleaning? You turn right around and coat the bore with them again after all the cleaning.

I've had the thought that some of the problems people experience after cleaning were brought about by the cleaning...I mean people use everything up to and including aqua regia on their bores in an attempt to get down to the bare metal. Is that really necessary?

Inquiring minds and all that.

Spence

 

[coloradoclyde]

Well, temperature is dependent on exposure time. the time is too short for the 2500 degrees to achieve much..

But! you are right about cleaning down to bare metal....Bare metal is more rust prone than any other....Truly bare metal with flash rust before your very eyes...

 

[Billnpatti]

Black Hand's question, as sometimes happens, raises more questions.

Black powder burning temperature can reach 2500 degrees Fahrenheit. Most oils will burn at that temperature, so why don't those used in the bore burn completely up? Does anyone have any evidence those nasty oils everyone seems so disturbed by actually remain in the bore after firing?

Is it a bad thing if they do? What bad thing happens because a bit of oil remains in the bore after shooting and after cleaning? You turn right around and coat the bore with them again after all the cleaning.

I've had the thought that some of the problems people experience after cleaning were brought about by the cleaning...I mean people use everything up to and including aqua regia on their bores in an attempt to get down to the bare metal. Is that really necessary?

Inquiring minds and all that.

Spence

Well, the question of whether or not residual oils remain in the bore after firing is one that I have not personally tested for. So, if you are contending that any oils are completely consumed in the firing process, I will have to admit that your guess is as good as mine. Having fired more than a few thousand rounds with a muzzleloading rifle, my opinion, and it is only an opinion, is that there are traces of residual oil in the fouling that is in the bore. But, even if there is no oil in the fouling, a soap or detergent is an aid in removing it from the bore. I assume that is the real question, does a soap or detergent aid in removing fouling from the bore of a muzzleloading rifle? If so, how? And the answer is that it does, in fact, aid in removing fouling from the bore. How does it do this? Aside from its ability to dissolve grease and oil, it is a surfactant that makes water wetter by reducing the surface tension of the water. Wetter water means that it can break up dirt and lift it away. This is an indisputable fact about a detergent. So residual oil or no residual oil, a surfactant such as soap or a detergent will aid in the loosening and removing of bore fouling. The next question is whether it is absolutely necessary. My answer to that question is that it is not absolutely necessary. One can get their bore clean with just plain old water if they so choose. It may take a bit more scrubbing but it is quite doable. Should one use it? That is up to the individual. Use it or don't, that is an individual choice we will have to make on our own because we won't have Hillary in The White House making executive decisions to tell us how to do everything. Ain't that sweet?

Flash rust.....yes, you can get flash rust when steel surfaces are laid bare to the elements. However, the depth of flash rust is measured in microns. If immediately wiped away, it is harmless. So, once the bore of a rifle is thoroughly cleaned and dried, a wipe down with a bit of protective oil will wipe away any flash rust and the bare surface will be protected with whatever product you feel provides the protection that you want.

In the final analysis, should you use a soap or detergent to clean your bore? Only if you want to. Does it help? I think so. Is flash rust a fact? Yes, it can and usually will happen on bare steel. The rapidity of its occurrence is a function of several factors, heat and the presence of oxygen are the main ones. Is flash rust a real concern? I don't think so because it penetrates so extremely little into the surface, only a molecule or so in thickness. Only the surface molecules of iron react with oxygen molecules to form the iron oxide that we call flash rust. It doesn't penetrate unless left untreated. In reality, if you wipe way all traces of flash rust and protect the exposed surfaces with a protective coating, a lifetime, or even a couple of lifetimes of shooting it will not effect the bore significantly in any way.

Okay, I'm done. Someone give me a hand in getting down from this soapbox. :haha:

 

[George]

I've posted this information more than once in the past, to no avail, but this is a new crowd, so I'll have another go.

"Chemistry of Powder and Explosives, Vol. I, by Tenney L. Davis, 1941

Experiments with RLG brand black powder. In the burning of the powder, this is what is produced:

Overall, combustion of black powder converts ~45% of the charge to gasses, leaving ~55% as solids. The solids constitute the smoke and residue in the gun.

The gaseous products, by percent weight, are: Carbon dioxide-49.29, Carbon monoxide-12.47, Nitrogen-32.91, Hydrogen sulfide-2.65, Methane-0.43 and Hydrogen-2.19.

The solids by percent weight are: Potassium carbonate-61, Potassium sulphate--15.10, Potassium sulphide-14.45, Potassium thiocyanate-0.22, Potassium nitrate-0.27, Ammonium carbonate-0.08, Sulphur-8.74, and Carbon-0.08."

Of course, it's those solids we are interested in. Here's some info about water solubility, and other bits of interest, I was able to glean with a quick search of chemistry sites on the web:

Potassium carbonate... very water soluble. Described as "deliquescent, tends to liquefaction by attraction and absorption of water from the air" [sound familiar?] Known also as potash or pearl ash, used in olden days as a leavening agent in bread.

Potassium sulphate... very water soluble

Potassium sulphide... water soluble

Potassium thiocyanate... very water soluble, deliquescent

Potassium nitrate aka saltpetre [left over from the powder, not a product of combustion]... moderately soluble in cold water, very soluble in hot water. Used in corning meat.

Ammonium carbonate... water soluble, used in smelling salts and baking powder

Notice that the first three constitute 90.5% of the fouling, and that the bulk of the remainder is residual sulphur at 8.74%.

The only things you are likely to find in your barrel after the shot which are not water soluble are some left-over sulphur and some carbon (charcoal), both neutral. Even most of that will be blown out the barrel. I see nothing here which requires alcohol, windshield wiper fluid, water soluble oil of any type, soap, acetone or any of the many, many other
things I hear people advocating as cleaning agents.

Usually, when I ask why all the chemistry involved in cleaning, the answer is that nasty residual oil, which must be removed at all cost. That's why I keep asking what is so bad about the oil, if it actually remains.

Spence

NB Some other interesting info from the studies I checked, for discussion at another time, maybe.

In generating these gases, the volume of the black powder expands more than 3,600 times. Burning temperature is in excess of 2,135°C/3875°F. Ignition temperature is 800-867F depending on specific composition.

 

[Artificer]

Spence,

My evidence for this is purely anecdotal and that means it may not or would not stand up to scientific scrutiny.

When the powder is burnt, if it leaves a thin charcoal "crust" (which is not water soluble) over other residue that would attack/rust the base metal, perhaps then the soap helps get through the charcoal crust to loosen it and help wash it away?

Now if one uses very hot water, than perhaps heating the barrel with the water expands the metal slightly and would then break up the charcoal crust?

Freely admit I'm only guessing here.

Gus