Ol' time cleaning..

[coloradoclyde]

Flash rust.....yes, you can get flash rust when steel surfaces are laid bare to the elements. However, the depth of flash rust is measured in microns. If immediately wiped away, it is harmless. So, once the bore of a rifle is thoroughly cleaned and dried, a wipe down with a bit of protective oil will wipe away any flash rust and the bare surface will be protected with whatever product you feel provides the protection that you want.

I'm going to disagree with that statement on the basis that, Wiping away the rust does not halt the rusting process....Nor does coating it with oil. Oil simply creates a oxygen barrier. Once steel begins to rust it is "hungry" for oxygen. This can only be stopped by passivation...A chemical process.
Bluing is one form of passivation, done for both protection and aesthetics....

 

[Billnpatti]

Well, that begs the question of why your barrel does not continue to rust away from both the inside as well as the outside since almost all of our rifles are either browned or blued. As you have seen, I'm relatively sure, on many occasions, you can wipe your bore right after it has been cleaned and find traces of rust on your patch. But, when you wipe away the rust with an oily or greasy patch the rust stops. All of my rifles have been fired many times and cleaned almost as many times with warm to hot soapy water. But, all of my bores are clean as a hound's tooth. I can run a clean patch down the bore on any of my rifles and get only the faintest stain on the patch. If flash rust continued to eat away at my bore, my rifles would all be ruined by now. That is not to mention the fact that the brown that is on most of my rifles has not continued to rust away from the outside.

While I do not agree that once rust has started it will continue in all cases, or, unless I am mistaken, that seems to be what you are saying. I will agree that unchecked rust will under many conditions continue until all of the iron has been turned to iron oxide. But, if the moisture and oxygen are kept away, the rusting process will stop. When the available oxygen is used up or excluded the rusting process cannot go any further. When all loose rust, such as flash rust, is wiped away and a protective coating is put over it so that oxygen is excluded it will stop. What choice does it have? No oxygen, no oxidation.

I clean with warm to hot soapy water every time I shoot one of my rifles. I have cleaned them this way for many years. I often get traces of flash rust out of my bore but all of my rifles are in excellent shape. Nice shiny bores, no sign of pitting nor other signs of rust damage. None have continued to rust away. So, 'splain that, Lucy. :haha:

 

[George]

When the powder is burnt, if it leaves a thin charcoal "crust" (which is not water soluble) over other residue that would attack/rust the base metal, perhaps then the soap helps get through the charcoal crust to loosen it and help wash it away?

It would be impossible to prove that didn't happen, but it hasn't in my experience. I've been cleaning my guns with nothing but water for many years, and I've seen no evidence of it.

Has no one ever noticed that the fouling in the area of the pan and frizzen and the outer surface of the barrel around the touchhole come totally clean down to bare metal with one swipe with a wet cloth? Why would it be different inside the bore?

Spence

 

[Zonie]

Think about it Spence.

Although the temperature can reach over 2500° F, within thousandths of a second the fire is out.
No more heat.

I'm sure you have found that you can wave your finger thru a flame without your finger getting burned or even warmed to any degree (no pun intended).

As for getting down to the bare metal, I don't know that it is really needed unless your in the Military and your DI is demanding to inspect your rifle. :grin:

IMO, if the various salts created by the burning powder are removed and the bore is coated with a barrier to keep it from rusting, that's about all that is really needed.

 

[George]

Although the temperature can reach over 2500° F, within thousandths of a second the fire is out.
No more heat.

I'm sure you have found that you can wave your finger thru a flame without your finger getting burned or even warmed to any degree (no pun intended).

Yes, time does matter, a lot. But I promise you the flash of burning black powder has time you badly. One of my adventuresome young sons decided to make some firecrackers by rolling some purloined 3F in a paper and lighting it with a match. It worked, made a nice bang. But he came squalling to me for help because the flash gave him deep second degree burns on every surface of his match hand.
Contrary to the situation when you are waving your hand through the flames, the speed of the burning of black powder is so quick it's as though your hand is standing still for the entire burn. It will raise blisters on you before you can blink.

We've all seen well charred patches after a shot with poor lube.

Spence

 

[coloradoclyde]

Yes, time does matter, a lot. But I promise you the flash of burning black powder has time you badly. One of my adventuresome young sons decided to make some firecrackers by rolling some purloined 3F in a paper and lighting it with a match. It worked, made a nice bang. But he came squalling to me for help because the flash gave him deep second degree burns on every surface of his match hand.
Contrary to the situation when you are waving your hand through the flames, the speed of the burning of black powder is so quick it's as though your hand is standing still for the entire burn. It will raise blisters on you before you can blink.

We've all seen well charred patches after a shot with poor lube.

Spence

There is more going on than just heat and time......Black powder explodes, imbedding burning material into your skin...causing the burn.. The extra oxygen in the potassium nitrate completes the fire triangle making your skin literally flammable.

 

[coloradoclyde]

So, 'splain that, Lucy.

Ever buy a new piece of metal from the steel market? It doesn't come all bright shiny and bare....nor is it rusty.
It has been coated with hot black oxide...

Hot baths of sodium hydroxide, nitrates, and nitrites[5] at 141 °C (286 °F)[6] are used to convert the surface of the material into
magnetite (Fe3O4). about one micron thick.
Hot blackening involves dipping the part into various tanks. The workpiece is usually "dipped" by automated part carriers for transportation between tanks. These tanks contain, in order, alkaline cleaner, water, caustic soda at 140.5 °C (the blackening compound), and finally the sealant, which is usually oil. The caustic soda bonds chemically to the surface of the metal, creating a porous base layer on the part . Oil is then applied to the heated part, which seals it by "sinking" into the applied porous layer. It is the oil that prevents the corrosion of the workpiece.

Using real black powder and cleaning with hot soapy water contains all the elements needed for the formation of magnetite (Fe3O4) over time...

Anyone ever notice how an old gun is less prone to rusting than a new one is? This is due to passivation over time and the formation of magnetite.

Case hardened parts like locks are also coated with magnetite as a result of the hardening process...giving them increased resistance to rusting....This is why you almost never see your pan rust unless you really abuse it.

 

[Artificer]

When the powder is burnt, if it leaves a thin charcoal "crust" (which is not water soluble) over other residue that would attack/rust the base metal, perhaps then the soap helps get through the charcoal crust to loosen it and help wash it away?

It would be impossible to prove that didn't happen, but it hasn't in my experience. I've been cleaning my guns with nothing but water for many years, and I've seen no evidence of it.

Has no one ever noticed that the fouling in the area of the pan and frizzen and the outer surface of the barrel around the touchhole come totally clean down to bare metal with one swipe with a wet cloth? Why would it be different inside the bore?

Spence

Though I can not describe it in scientific terms, there is a difference between the heat and results of the heat in the priming hole and in the priming pan VS the inside of the bore. There is more powder and probably burning hotter inside the bore, most likely because it is contained, while the powder in the flash channel and in the pan is open to the air/atmosphere. We know this to be true as with enough rounds fired, there is erosion in the breech and also some erosion in the touch hole, that is not usually evident in the priming pan. IOW, the heat or at least the time the burning powder and super heated gas from the powder is greatest in the contained bore, then down a little as the ignited gas goes out through the touch hole vs the erosion of the priming pan.

Gus

 

[Billnpatti]

We have gone back and forth for two pages on whether you should or shouldn't use soap in the water that you use to clean your bore. The essence of the OPs question was whether or not the old way to clean a gun is still a good way. It amazes me how we can get off onto such a silly argument (discussion) and then go on and on about it. :v: Spence doesn't use soap and he says he gets his guns nice and clean with just water...Okay, that's fine. :thumbsup: If it works for him and he likes to do it that way, fine. What's the harm? Personally, I like to use soap in the water that I use to clean my guns. It works for me and I am happy with it. I don't plan to change. :shake: And that's okay, too. So, how did grandpappy clean his gun? Some places mention the use of soap and some seem to have used just water. I guess both must have worked. So, should the OP use just water or should he use soap in his water? I'd say that since both seem to work just fine and it appears that some folks grandpappy used soap and some folks grandpappy used just plain old water, the OP can do whichever he pleases and still get his gun clean. To each his own. Isn't it time to quit beating this dead horse? :dead: Just sayin'....

 

[George]

Ok, we can go back to not talking. This place gets terminally boring if we aren't talking about something silly.

But...if I ever find that reference I'm looking for about Grandpappy using acetone to clean his gun, I can't promise I won't bring it up again.

Spence

 

[good ole boy]

:dead: :grin:

 

[Henry2357]

So do we use soap or not.....

LMAO :rotf: :rotf:

errr, sorry newer guy just tryin to fit in....

 

[azmntman]

YES