NorthStar Canoe Gun

[Jason Lewis]

should be, choke doesn't have anything to do with barrel length.

 

[Le Grand]

That's my thought too. Anyway,it does seem like a Canoe gun will probably be used most of the time with round ball.

 

[jimbobber]

Early Rustic Arms is still out there! I talked to Terry yesterday about a Cumberland Fowler I ordered Feb 08. Holdup has been he's trying to find just the right piece of stump walnut for me, plus relocating the shop and health issues. Hard for a 1-2 man shop to keep up when they make a great product!

 

[matt denison]

Does Early Rustic Arms make a jug choked Canoe Gun?

 

[Le Grand]

In other words, you ordered it about two years ago and it isn't even started yet. That's not for me. I'll get a smoothbore from North Star West.

 

[MUZZLESMOKE]

Hi Everybody. Now the canoe guns are nice looking and fun to shoot. I had one a few years back. I trade it for a Pedersoli. But, To get back to my point. If you look up the History of a Canoe gun.
You find that there was no such gun. :shake: It is lets say a modern gun for a lack of a better word.

Sorry, I had loads fun of with mine. And you will, too.

 

[Le Grand]

You find that there was no such gun. :shake:

That's right and the reason there are so many of the old ones in museums and collections today is probably because no body wanted them. "Canoe Gun" is simply a catalog name, just like "Boat Gun" or whatever else those guns are called. The makers have to call them something. And those canoe guns represent shortened guns that carved a real place in our history regardless of how well or precisely they were documented. In addition to that, today's canoe guns are a lot of fun.

 

[Extranero]

Actually there is plenty of history on these guns, but it had nothing to do with a canoe. There are many examples in museums and private collections of NW guns shortened in the field either because of accidents or because it made them handier buffalo runner guns. Often times the accidents were because of buffalo running. Anyway, the canoe reference was unfortunate, but they are PC if you're chasing buffalo off the back of a running pony.

Sean

 

[Le Grand]

Sean,
I was being facetious (or trying to) when I said that no body wanted those guns that didn't exist so they gave them to museums and collectors. Yes, there were many of the cut down Northwest gun in history. So many that some of them still exist (which is special for a gun that a didn't exist), in those museums and collections. And the name Canoe Gun is a fair one. We can easily bet that some were used in canoes. Today a few clever historians want to say that mountain men never used canoes but they're only showing that they've never heard of Potts and Colter.

 

[tg]

If to be PC I would think the barrel thickness at the muzzle and the thimble/stock configuration would look like a repaired gun.

 

[Le Grand]

TG, I won't argue with you there. Even so, some of the originals were shortened by 'smiths who did real good jobs. I'd like mine to look like it was done well.

 

[LaBonte]

If to be PC I would think the barrel thickness at the muzzle and the thimble/stock configuration would look like a repaired gun.

You're basing your point on the idea that all such guns were cut down longer firearms,
1) when in fact there is documentation for orders from the factory for 24"-30" barreled NW guns.
2) barrel configurations (thickness, etc) were not written in stone and also varied considerably in their dimensions even when built to the same size, but then there are also the points of - a cut down 30" or 36" or 42" would vary in thickness so how do you establish a particular thickness for a cut down gun?
Thimble configuration - just because one cut down the barrel does not mean the thimble distance/configuration had to stay as is - one could easily move/re-place thimbles - something that can be seen/documented on originals for various types that were shortened or changed from full-stock to half-stock.
another point not aimed at tg - So much of the argument vis a vis shortened guns is based on the semantics of the name/names now applied to such guns rather than the actual history - twould seem that many folks get their knickers in a knot over the name or assumed usage, rather than the actuality of such guns..........

 

[tg]

I was thinking in an earlier time frame than the RMFT I believe the 24" guns were in the 40's or 50's,and I suspect many guns were cut down just to the point of being functuional,this was likely the norm rather on the frontier than the scaled down versions we have today, a cut down gun looking like that would likely be the exception to the rule,another case of where and when but for newcommers as much of a reliable version should be presented as we possibly can about these guns as they always pop up and many new ML shooters shy from the longer barrels,like to see them have as much info and thoughts to chew on as possible.I am always reminded of a couple of gentlemen who had purchased fairly expensive C or D French guns only to become quite unhappy when an indepth thread was started about these guns and the locks and actual meaning of the lettersused in the gun description, one fellow had requested a trade lock and was told by his builder that the Germanic lock provided was more correct,that has gotta hurt, though I do suggest a lot of personal research and not relying on any one vendor or builder(with a few exceptions there) for authenticity info about gun types.

 

[Le Grand]

Merry Christmas to TG and all. Let's remember that during the RMFT there were accomplished blacksmiths at the forts like Fort Union and Fort Vancouver, just to name two. Those 'smiths would have had the tools and the talents to cut a trade gun down so it looked pretty good.

 

[tg]

I have only seen some pics of a few and they look as though they had been "worked on" I think it would be safe to say that both ends of the spectrum were represented in the past but only one is today, for some reason the "grundge" syndrom has not hit the short barreled guns.I think if I ever had one I would pick up a used 42" gun and cut it down and go for that look.

 

[Le Grand]

I'd have to agree that getting a long barreled NW gun and cutting it down would give you a short gun that looked like it had been cut down. Just the same, if you wanted one, a Canoe Gun kit could be put together in a way to make it look like you want it to, like it had been cut down. Getting that kit might save a little money.

 

[tg]

I was thinking that with a used gun it would look used and more likely been around a bit before it broke...but I guess new guns were damaged also,I most likely won't play around with it, I like the 42"/44" tubes on the guns I have,and I don't have a canoe or a Buffaloe pony, this is just an interesting topic whenever it pops up,there is a tendency for newcommers to believe that ready made or cutdown guns were the common item for use in a canoe...where are the mythbusters? I guess as long as the story gets told with a good degree of reality as this thread has done they will not hang onto the canoe myth.Happy holidays to all.

 

[Ketchakah]

Le Grand,
This is very true indeed, However keep in mind that most custom or repair work was charged at the rate of work involved.
If I came to the Blacksmith to have a gun cut down, I might not want to spend the extra money to have it "reworked". "just cut it off here" says I and thats what i get.
It wont change the way it shoots, just how much i pay for it.

 

[Mike Brooks]

If being PC is important to you and you want a stubby gun to run buffs with you really should use a NW gun and actually cut off the barrel to what ever length you figure is handy. I don't believe these were cut off by the smiths in the forts, but rather this was an NDN thing....they had tools and hacking off a barrel isn't a real tough thing. You could do it with a three cornered file. A great percentage of these guns had their buttstocks cut off too as these weren't shot from the shoulder. Most all I have seen with the butstock intact was missing the sheet metal buttplate too. also, most all the originals had no provision left for a ram rod as they didn't use them, they just chucked an under size ball on top of the powder and shot.
I also figure there wasn't alot of buff running going on east of the mississippi, nor where there alot of white folks involved in the past time. I know there are a few written accounts of whites running buffs, but these instances seem to be amusement more than anything else.

 

[Le Grand]

Mike, I won't agree with you but at the same time I'll try not to disagree. You use "most all" with certain repetition and so will I. "Most all" of the shortened Northwest guns I've seen, let me admit those were mainly in photos, have looked pretty good. They show that both wood work and metal work were done with some care. In fact, some of those shortened guns really look outstanding. If I got a canoe gun, I'd want mine to look outstanding too.