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Nipple hole size
- Thread starter Hawkwood
- Start date
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Simple as modern design and modern caps.
The ability to make a hole that size on a regular and consistant basis.
I imagine the caps we use today are somewhat different than what they had in the 19th century also. :wink:
Many nipples today have a .032 hole for proper funtion, but there's still guy's out there that feel the need to make that hole bigger,,
"Cause it makes'm better" :youcrazy:
The ability to make a hole that size on a regular and consistant basis.
I imagine the caps we use today are somewhat different than what they had in the 19th century also. :wink:
Many nipples today have a .032 hole for proper funtion, but there's still guy's out there that feel the need to make that hole bigger,,
"Cause it makes'm better" :youcrazy:
I like the hole to be just large enough for a standard paper clip wire to fit through. (.035 to .040) I can use any powder with no misfires. A larger hole could result in hammer blowback.
Small paper clip = go. Large paper clip = no go.
Too large a hole can cause pressure variations, throw cap fragments, kick the hammer back and be generally less desireable than the right sized hole.
Too large a hole can cause pressure variations, throw cap fragments, kick the hammer back and be generally less desireable than the right sized hole.
If folks are getting "CLICK,,,,,,,,,,BANG"
Theres other things going on than the size of the nipple hole.
I like buying guns from frustrated shooters that can't get those darn caplock guns to work right. They usually sell'm pretty cheap.
I clean them, replace the nipple, and add to my collection. Every so often I thin the herd.
Drill away gents, when you can't get a decent group, let me know when your selling, :wink:
Theres other things going on than the size of the nipple hole.
I like buying guns from frustrated shooters that can't get those darn caplock guns to work right. They usually sell'm pretty cheap.
I clean them, replace the nipple, and add to my collection. Every so often I thin the herd.
Drill away gents, when you can't get a decent group, let me know when your selling, :wink:
stumpkiller nailed it.....
you guys have to remember how liability paranoid insurance issues have made manufacturing this type of product in these times.
when the originals were buit, i highly doubt there was much concern with these issues. that, and i'm sure caps are much better today.
there's also the intention to not scare new consumers away from the blow back these guns have.
you guys have to remember how liability paranoid insurance issues have made manufacturing this type of product in these times.
when the originals were buit, i highly doubt there was much concern with these issues. that, and i'm sure caps are much better today.
there's also the intention to not scare new consumers away from the blow back these guns have.
i was just thinking about this, this weekend, i was thinking about drilling it out after i went to range and had about 9 misfires but i found out it was due to how i was cleaning my gun nothing to do with the nipple hole size, so i started cleaning my gun with water and soap with the breech end sitting below the water and used a cleaning jag and patch like a pump and did that for about 5 minutes, went and shot again and no misfires or delayed fires, like stated before if your getting the snap......boom there is probably something else wrong, probably just has some fouling in the nipple and breech plug.
The tiny hole, combined with an internal taper on the nipple concentrates the fire into the flash channel giving a hotter, more reliable ignition.
Going back, way back, in time, [if memory serves me rightly] I believe the 'hot shot' style nipple was designed originally by Dan Pawlak the inventor of Pyrodex. He was a genuine rocket fuel engineer and recognized the need for more fire to ignite Pyrodex. The internal shape of the hot shot was also a product of his rocket expertise.
Going back, way back, in time, [if memory serves me rightly] I believe the 'hot shot' style nipple was designed originally by Dan Pawlak the inventor of Pyrodex. He was a genuine rocket fuel engineer and recognized the need for more fire to ignite Pyrodex. The internal shape of the hot shot was also a product of his rocket expertise.
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In muskets a larger hole allows more force from that musket cap to be applied to a choked down ignition channel. Not so important if no one is charging.
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I still use the hot shot stainless nipples and like them better than any other I have tried.
I believe they use a venturi shaped fire chamber and have no idea how they are formed inside. Also they have a two holed air vent on the nipple shank that allows a hotter burn. I quit having hang fires with these and straight black powder use.MD
I believe they use a venturi shaped fire chamber and have no idea how they are formed inside. Also they have a two holed air vent on the nipple shank that allows a hotter burn. I quit having hang fires with these and straight black powder use.MD
besides the advantages of a larger flash hole size in the nipple, a coned shape in both drums and bolsters does three things...
it allows the charge to get closer to the cap, it exposes more of the charge to the caps fire and the cone's angled walls gives the fire less of a turn as it enters the cone,which reduces the lose of inginition fire where it has to make the turn from nipple to cone. all of them leading to quicker and more consistant ignition. you want the larger internal diameter to be nearest the charge. if the coning was smaller near the charge, it would constrict the cap's fire as it got closer to the charge, not concentrate it at the charge.
as the charge ignites, the cone's taper restricts blow back as well, so a comprimise has to be reached between flash hole size, ignition time and amount of acceptable blowback. a large flash hole will certainly speed up ignition, but when the intial flash hole is too large, blowback starts torching caps apart and blowing hammers back, not a good thing shooter of by-standers. that's where manufacturing insurance issues start to control things.
it allows the charge to get closer to the cap, it exposes more of the charge to the caps fire and the cone's angled walls gives the fire less of a turn as it enters the cone,which reduces the lose of inginition fire where it has to make the turn from nipple to cone. all of them leading to quicker and more consistant ignition. you want the larger internal diameter to be nearest the charge. if the coning was smaller near the charge, it would constrict the cap's fire as it got closer to the charge, not concentrate it at the charge.
as the charge ignites, the cone's taper restricts blow back as well, so a comprimise has to be reached between flash hole size, ignition time and amount of acceptable blowback. a large flash hole will certainly speed up ignition, but when the intial flash hole is too large, blowback starts torching caps apart and blowing hammers back, not a good thing shooter of by-standers. that's where manufacturing insurance issues start to control things.
Hawkwood said:
Did it ever occur that they might not have been made that way? But might be gas cut. OR made that way because nobody new any better or they were made for the African trade guns and nobody cared?
Large holes in nipples result in excess gas escape.
This results in the hammer being blown back and sometimes the lock even broken. (documented to "back in the day")
Then there is the cap fragments and other ejecta striking the shooter about the face.
Finally accuracy suffers.
Nothing good comes from large flash holes in nipples.
Dan
One thing I did not mention. A large nipple hole is a way to make a screwed up breech design more reliable.
So if something else is screwed up it may make the gun shootable. But why would anyone want to shoot a gun with a screwed up flash channel that requires an unsafe nipple to make it reliable?
But then there is a modern goofy fix to make a poor design "work":
Hot shot nipple's primary use was to eliminate the signs of high pressure (hammer blown back is like flattened primers in a modern CF) that tend to occur in about 20 rounds (or less) of shooting conicals and heavy powder charges. The typical low quality coil spring lock found on the mass produced, sell em at Wal Mart MLs did not have enough mainspring power to hold the hammer down even with heavy RB loads. Venting the nipple "solves" this problem vents pressure away from the hammer face. No more signs of over pressure caused by; poor lock design/poor breech design/excess pressures at the base of the nipple caused by:
1. High pressure loads
2. Breech not designed for HP loads
Usually both.
Of course there is still ejecta flying around but the shooting magazines say its a great idea :youcrazy: . There is no other need but sales hype tells a different story. But this is virtually always :bull:
The high pressure English long range rifles of the 1860s-1870s, 45 cal 480 to 550 gr bullet and 100-120 gr of Fg had careful breech design, stiff mainprings and a PLATINUM LINED NIPPLE WITH A SMALL HOLE.
So its possible to shoot high pressure loads in a ML. Its just not possible to do it with a ML that retails for 250-400 bucks depending on the time frame 1970s or 2000 AD.
Dan
So if something else is screwed up it may make the gun shootable. But why would anyone want to shoot a gun with a screwed up flash channel that requires an unsafe nipple to make it reliable?
But then there is a modern goofy fix to make a poor design "work":
Hot shot nipple's primary use was to eliminate the signs of high pressure (hammer blown back is like flattened primers in a modern CF) that tend to occur in about 20 rounds (or less) of shooting conicals and heavy powder charges. The typical low quality coil spring lock found on the mass produced, sell em at Wal Mart MLs did not have enough mainspring power to hold the hammer down even with heavy RB loads. Venting the nipple "solves" this problem vents pressure away from the hammer face. No more signs of over pressure caused by; poor lock design/poor breech design/excess pressures at the base of the nipple caused by:
1. High pressure loads
2. Breech not designed for HP loads
Usually both.
Of course there is still ejecta flying around but the shooting magazines say its a great idea :youcrazy: . There is no other need but sales hype tells a different story. But this is virtually always :bull:
The high pressure English long range rifles of the 1860s-1870s, 45 cal 480 to 550 gr bullet and 100-120 gr of Fg had careful breech design, stiff mainprings and a PLATINUM LINED NIPPLE WITH A SMALL HOLE.
So its possible to shoot high pressure loads in a ML. Its just not possible to do it with a ML that retails for 250-400 bucks depending on the time frame 1970s or 2000 AD.
Dan
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