nathan.davis
36 Cal.
I assume that you're cutting the leather patches square just like the cotton ticking? And I assume that your leather patch is the same thickness that you would normally use for a cotton ticking patch?
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Need help analyzing my first outing
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nathan.davis
36 Cal.
Another reader from this forum wrote:
"My 58 cal TVM with a Rice round bottem barrel likes 120gr Ffg Goex,felt wad over powder,018 ticking on a hand cast 562 ball."
His barrel sounds identical to mine except that his caliber is very slightly smaller. Like other comments above, he also found it necessary to use a wad ahead of the patch. So it sounds like I'll need to do something similar or use a leather patch.
Now I'm getting charged up to see if my groups will get even tighter as I try some of these changes!
"My 58 cal TVM with a Rice round bottem barrel likes 120gr Ffg Goex,felt wad over powder,018 ticking on a hand cast 562 ball."
His barrel sounds identical to mine except that his caliber is very slightly smaller. Like other comments above, he also found it necessary to use a wad ahead of the patch. So it sounds like I'll need to do something similar or use a leather patch.
Now I'm getting charged up to see if my groups will get even tighter as I try some of these changes!
Nice shooting!
For lube I've been experimenting with mink oil this summer. I like it but don't know how it's going to react to the cold later in the fall. Hopefully it will stay greasier and not harden up like the yellow lubes I used in the past.
For lube I've been experimenting with mink oil this summer. I like it but don't know how it's going to react to the cold later in the fall. Hopefully it will stay greasier and not harden up like the yellow lubes I used in the past.
Many Klatch
69 Cal.
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Looks to me like your hunting load is going to be around 120 grains. Now that load is going to be pretty stiff if you want to shoot all day long. Try a load of around 62 to 75 grains for plinking at 25 yards.
I had a 62 rifle that I shot with 75 grains of powder for years. I could hit well at 25 and 50 yards but it needed more powder to do well at 100 yards. I find that my 54 shoots to the same place at 25 yards with either 55 or 75 grains. I only shoot the 75 grain loads when the range to the target stretches out a ways.
Any new muzzleloader will take about a year of regular shooting before you and the gun get used to each other. Don't mess with anything in the barrel yet. Just keep shooting it and trying different loads and patch lubes.
The leather patching sounds like a good idea. It does work and the patches are often reusable. You just need to lube them on the outside real well.
Welcome to the muzzleloading fraternity.
I had a 62 rifle that I shot with 75 grains of powder for years. I could hit well at 25 and 50 yards but it needed more powder to do well at 100 yards. I find that my 54 shoots to the same place at 25 yards with either 55 or 75 grains. I only shoot the 75 grain loads when the range to the target stretches out a ways.
Any new muzzleloader will take about a year of regular shooting before you and the gun get used to each other. Don't mess with anything in the barrel yet. Just keep shooting it and trying different loads and patch lubes.
The leather patching sounds like a good idea. It does work and the patches are often reusable. You just need to lube them on the outside real well.
Welcome to the muzzleloading fraternity.
nathan.davis
36 Cal.
I am also very interested in a cold weather lube. The American Soap Journal and Manufacturing Chemist notes that most mink oil is actually skunk oil. Since the two animals originate from the same family of animals, I seriously doubt that it really makes any difference. However, mink (skunk) oil is acidic and can therefore corrode metal. Again, this normally makes no difference since black powder is also very acidic. When we clean the gun with soapy water for storage, this removes the acid and the soapy water actually neutralizes the acid. However, this may become an important issue for long term storage of a ML. That is, we probably should not use an acidic oil or acidic anything that coats the barrel interior for an extended period of time.
From what I am reading, beeswax looks like it has great qualities. Additionally, peanut oil is highly temperature resistant. So I'm wondering if a combination of the two may offer the right consistency that can be used for patches and maybe even for storage?
I am certainly no expert on patch lubes or long term storage of an ML. I'm just reading up on them and trying to look at the chemical properties of the numerous approaches. It looks like there are many good alternatives, and I'm hoping to find a great combination for hot and cold weather that will also preserve the gun for storage.
From what I am reading, beeswax looks like it has great qualities. Additionally, peanut oil is highly temperature resistant. So I'm wondering if a combination of the two may offer the right consistency that can be used for patches and maybe even for storage?
I am certainly no expert on patch lubes or long term storage of an ML. I'm just reading up on them and trying to look at the chemical properties of the numerous approaches. It looks like there are many good alternatives, and I'm hoping to find a great combination for hot and cold weather that will also preserve the gun for storage.
I have a set of round leather punches, one of which just fits my .58 barrel, so I just punch out a supply from scrap leather approx. 1/8" thick. I lube them with olive oil (the cheap stuff). If they are started flat, they go down that way. I made a mistake one time & punched some one size larger & they just would not go down flat.
If you can't find an appropriate leather punch, I see others have used card wads.
Paul
If you can't find an appropriate leather punch, I see others have used card wads.
Paul
nathan.davis
36 Cal.
That's good input. I'll see if my local leather store has a leather punch that is the same size as my store-bought .62 patches--the ones that blew to shreds when I tried to use them.
nathan.davis
36 Cal.
I've been trying to look up the properties of some of the common lubes. Some oil based lubes are high in acid. That doesn't make any difference so long as you don't also use it to preserve your barrel for storage.
Bees wax has an acid index of 17-36. So I'm leaning away from it for anything in storage, although it would still work great for patches.
Canola oil has an acid index of only .071 and is very tolerant of high temperatures such as those found inside a ML barrel. And Criso is made from hydroginated Canola oil, so it also has the same low acid index and temperature tolerance. Because it tolerates high temperature, a lot of shooters find that it works well as a patch lube. If it is too thick, it can be thinned with common canola oil to maintain the same acid level. However, any added canola oil might separate with time.
Peanut oil has an acid index of only 3-4 and is also tolerant of high temperatures.
Extra virgin olive oil has an acid index of less than 7--also extremely low. Regular olive oil is higher in acid. Neither tolerates heat as well as canola or peanut oil.
So there are numerous options. At first look, Crisco seems to meet all the criteria for a temperature tolerant ball lube and as a low acid storage protectant. However, a lot of shooters note that it seems messy to work with. So there are probably some drawbacks to every option.
Bees wax has an acid index of 17-36. So I'm leaning away from it for anything in storage, although it would still work great for patches.
Canola oil has an acid index of only .071 and is very tolerant of high temperatures such as those found inside a ML barrel. And Criso is made from hydroginated Canola oil, so it also has the same low acid index and temperature tolerance. Because it tolerates high temperature, a lot of shooters find that it works well as a patch lube. If it is too thick, it can be thinned with common canola oil to maintain the same acid level. However, any added canola oil might separate with time.
Peanut oil has an acid index of only 3-4 and is also tolerant of high temperatures.
Extra virgin olive oil has an acid index of less than 7--also extremely low. Regular olive oil is higher in acid. Neither tolerates heat as well as canola or peanut oil.
So there are numerous options. At first look, Crisco seems to meet all the criteria for a temperature tolerant ball lube and as a low acid storage protectant. However, a lot of shooters note that it seems messy to work with. So there are probably some drawbacks to every option.
nathan.davis
36 Cal.
On a similar thought:
I've read of some ML shooters who stored their ML after wiping the bore with their favorite oil, only to find that the barrel bore still started to show some rust after a little time. I suspect that they used one of the oils that are moderately high in acid, and the rust was stimulated by the acid. Parts submerged in oil probably don't have this problem because the level of oil is so deep that it blocks all oxidation. But parts coated with a thin layer may have a problem.
I've read of some ML shooters who stored their ML after wiping the bore with their favorite oil, only to find that the barrel bore still started to show some rust after a little time. I suspect that they used one of the oils that are moderately high in acid, and the rust was stimulated by the acid. Parts submerged in oil probably don't have this problem because the level of oil is so deep that it blocks all oxidation. But parts coated with a thin layer may have a problem.
"I'll see if I can get a punch the same size as my pre lubed patches"
If you are going to use thin leather patches which wrap around the ball, that is OK.
If you are going to try the 1/8" thick leather wad as I suggested, they must be bore size.
Paul
If you are going to use thin leather patches which wrap around the ball, that is OK.
If you are going to try the 1/8" thick leather wad as I suggested, they must be bore size.
Paul
nathan.davis
36 Cal.
Thanks for the clarification.
nathan.davis
36 Cal.
Should I try to get bore size plus the grooves (.64) or bore size from land to land (.62)? Or is the difference in the noise?
Herb
54 Cal.
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I cut leather wads with a punch that is over bore size. Start it with a short starter and it will cup into the bore. Start the patched roundball on it and push them down the bore together. Another wad material I use is thick wool. Found a wool sweater at the Goodwill store that had shrunk from washing, almost a 1/4" thick. Used the same punch to make it over bore size. You can get a set of gasket punches at Harbor Freight for about $15, you could check their web site to see what sizes are in a set.
nathan.davis
36 Cal.
Thanks for the great tips. And please be careful about the wool wads. Most people don't realize it, but burning wool produces arsenic gas--luckily not too much since the wad is so small. Just avoid taking a big whiff of that manly cologne!
nathan.davis
36 Cal.
No I did not build the gun. I bought it already finished at a gun auction. You can see photos and inputs on it discussed on this forum at "Need help identifying this gun." Like this post, you can easily find it by looking for NWD as the author. Without anything to go on but a few markings, many readers from this forum helped to identify the barrel manufacturer and the kit maker.
Kennyc said:
I have a 62 caliber Rice barrel and it's .620 land to land. The round bottom grooves are .016 deep. I looked at the 42" Rice Golden Age profile swamped barrel and that also has .016 deep round bottom grooves. So, your formula is in error. .620+.016+.016= .652.
I actually shoot a .610 in my .62 Rice barrel with crushed thickness denim that by my measure is .025. It obviously crushes more as I can give a good couple of whacks with the short starter, then with about four hard strokes drive it down. It's a very tight fit, but not "mallet" tight.
Even though Rice barrels are kind of touted to not require a break-in because of their manufacturing procedure, mine took around 100 shots before I wasn't getting any patch holes/tearing on a consistent basis.
Interesting comments about the acid index. I've never considered that especially concerning storage. After a good cleaning I just use a thin coating of the yellow lube. Maybe not the best stuff but my storage area is very dry and I've had good luck with it. I may try something different when I run out of my current supply.
My muzzleloading mentor swore by the plain white Crisco so I might give that a shot in the future also.
My muzzleloading mentor swore by the plain white Crisco so I might give that a shot in the future also.
nathan.davis
36 Cal.
Luckily we have a Harbor Freight here in Springfield. From what you say, it sounds like an 11/16" punch would probably work out real good to cut some leather wads for a .62 caliber--my gun is a little over .65 caliber from groove to groove. So an 11/16' punch should produce a .69 wad that would cup when I put it into the bore. I'll drop by the store and see what they have.
