Native American ball loads???

[Skychief]

I'm reading 'The Encyclopedia of the Fur Trade'. The North West Trade guns seem to average about 6 pounds in weight, with many tipping the scales at 5 1/2 pounds.

Makes me wonder what powder charges they would have successfully used for killing deer. Many of the guns were bored at or near 20 gauge.

Hard to imagine that they stoked them with 100+ grains of powder like many tout as necessary today to hunt deer with 20 gauge roundball. Hard on the user as well as the gun most likely.

Reading the book and seeing the light weight guns of those days, and, understanding that they shot them more than we do today, has me questioning just how much powder is really necessary to down whitetails at 75 yards or less.

A .600" ball has plenty of weight and diameter to begin with, so just how much velocity (powder charge) does one really need to slide one through a deer's ribcage? :hmm:

Have we succumbed to the "magnumitis" prevalent in the other shooting sports these days?

What say you, how much of a powder charge do you suppose necessary to reliably take deer out to 75 yards or so with a 20 gauge roundball?

Any documentation regarding the charges used then appreciated too. The encyclopedia seems void of such information, though it's a fountain of knowledge concerning the guns of the era.

Best regards, Skychief.

 

[smo]

Great question Sky?

100grn of ffg is not that bad a thump!

Just hold on a little tighter! LOL

I shot a buck last year at 35 yards with my .54 using 70 grns ffg and it didn’t pass thru the cavity.

Cost me a deer.

 

[Skychief]

Howdy smo! I'd make two wagers.

First, your gun (and mine for certain) weigh a bit more than 5 1/2 or 6 pounds.

Secondly, one of these light guns would most certainly let you know when you touched her off.

Thin barreled guns, partly and maybe mostly what made them so light, were the norm. I read too that they had more trouble with burst barrels in those days, maiming their operators. Another reason for lighter loads than we mostly use today. :hmm:

Best regards, Skychief. :hatsoff:

 

[Sparkitoff]

Well the old 20 gauge slugs I used traveled at 1300 fps M.V. and easily went through Eastern whitetail out to 75 yards that I have used them at. So...what powder charge gets you 1300 fps M.V.? Depending on powder, etc. around 65 grains could do it. I use a .626 ball (no patch) with 80 grains of FFFg in my smoothbore and get 1488 fps on my chronograph set at 8 feet from muzzle. That load has gone through all the deer I have shot, which have all been at 50-yards or less. So I think you can get by with less powder/velocity than that.

 

[tenngun]

Although we have records of some mighty big charges ran down guns in the old days, we see plenty of evidence of lighter charges. Powder measure sold with those guns were often in the 75 grain range.
Guns like the Hall rifle and the colt pistols were made often for pretty moderate charges. Then today we often pour 3f down our bores 1,11/2 or 2 f was more common.
Even the first breach loaders and smokeless powder guns were made with lighter shots then we see today in a given size. A breech loader gets more work out of the powder chargefor sure but 45/70, 44/40, 38/55 were all popular and low velocity guns. Ned Robers talked about moderate charges in his grandfathers double .45 rifle used for bear with conical.
People have been sold an idea that a bullet exiting with 75% of its velocity is somehow more deadly. Myself I’ve never seen any damage caused to a deer by a ball that has left it.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Some thoughts than run through my mind are that;
The light weight barrels most likely still had substantial material at the breech end. Once the load is moving a thin wall is adequate.
Next is that the native Indian is use to getting closer as in bow hunting. 30 yds was possibly a long shot!
Coupled with that they are excellent trackers and had all the time in the world to trail an injured beast!
Watch the bush men of Africa. No not the short people the Werfacawee tribes of the tall grass lands. The others, they use simple bows with a poison loaded spike arrow and will track their animal for days!

Magnumitisis has come about not because it is better no, it is born, created from the a need for instant results. A symptom of to busy a life style and time constraints in anything we do today!
How many times do we enter the woods already considering what time do we need to leave them?
Kind of sad really!

B.

 

[George]

Can't offer any specific loads or comparable situation as you discussed, but here are some general comments which might be interesting:

Samuel Hearne, A journey from Prince of Wales's Fort in Hudson Bay to the Northern Ocean, in the Years 1769, 1770, 1771, and 1772

"Nov. 1770 ....long before we arrived at the Fort we were obliged to cut up an ice-chissel into square lumps, as a substitute for ball. It is, however, rather dangerous firing lumps of iron out of such slight barrels as are brought to this part of the world for trade. These, though light and handy, and of course well adapted for the use of both English and Indians in long journeys, and of sufficient strength for leaden shot or ball, are not strong enough for this kind of shot; and strong fowling-pieces would not only be too heavy for the laborious ways of hunting in this country, but their bores being so much larger, would require more than double the quantity of ammunition that small ones do; which, to Indians at least, must be an object of no inconsiderable importance."

Dale Payne, Frontier Memories, 2002, compiled from John Dabney Shane interviews:.

"You could always tell an Indian gun. Never were so heavily loaded, nor sounded so loud, cracked flatter."

"...had gotten to within fifteen steps to where an Indian lay behind a log, that was to his left, when the Indian took deliberate aim at Mc Mullen and fired. The ball entered the pommel of his saddle, don’t know whether it went through or not, Indians shot with monstrous little powder."

"A young man at the low dutch station, John Galloway, a reed maker rode out to go round his cornfield and see how it was coming on, before he got out of sight, or just after the Indians shot him in the arm in two places. They allowed there were two bullets in the gun."

Spence

 

[jrmflintlock]

All Good points.

I know 70 grains of FFg is what mine likes. And based on the numbers, it should have no trouble poking a large hole in most critters.

I think in addition to mangnamitus we all suffer from longrangeitus! I have suffered from it in the past myself, and not only once, so its a reoccurring illness, but I am building up an immunity to it. For some reason we want to be able to shoot just a little further. I think it has to do, like someone said, with our concept of time. If we can shoot further, we don't have to take the time to get closer, or wait for the critter to get closer to us. There is always the thought of the season ending, or risking another hunter interfering with a stalk, etc..

Our forefathers did not have such constraints. I have read accounts of hunters waiting over night for a target animal to come into range.

Its difficult to accept the "limited" range of our firearm of choice, not its lethality or accuracy but its limited aimability with Iron sights.

SO my longwinded point is, lighter powder charges are not an issue when your ranges are under 50 yards.

 

[Ron LaClair]

I have a 20ga smoothbore that I named "Two-Fer" because it killed two deer with one shot. (I've told the story here on the forum)

The shot was taken at around 30yds, the gun was loaded with 80gr's of 2FF behind a 595 prb, The ball went through the lungs of the first deer and was recovered just under the hide on the other side of a 2nd adult deer.

Two-Fer also killed a cow buffalo at 70yds with the same load that went completely through the buff. (I told that story here also.)

 

[tenngun]

And this one has come up before. Most people didn’t get corrected vision back then, people that did get glasses were likely to get readers. There was no use shooting farther then you could see.indians vision was now better then white boys vision.

 

[Ron LaClair]

The point I was trying to make was that 80gr's was more than enough killin power so any more than that would be a waste IMHO


Two deer with one shot

 

[azmntman]

+ 1 :thumbsup: 80 is PLENTY including elk. Pops buff was 80 gr .58 concal and dang near a pass through, I have the hunk o lead

 

[Ron LaClair]

Pops buff was 80 gr .58 concal and dang near a pass through, I have the hunk o lead

The ball on the left from my 20ga fowler was recovered under the hide of the 2nd deer. Ball on the right is unfired.

 

[Skychief]

Sparkitoff, tenngun, Nate, Spence, jrm, Ron, and az, thanks for the thoughtful replies. To me, it's good to wonder and surmise about the old days and old ways.

Going back to my boyhood I've had a fascination with the Natives of our country. Still do. Rarely if ever seen today, I, and likely many here, played "cowboys and Indians" when adolescents. Guess who wore feathers in my neighborhood. :wink:

Spence, that John Dabney Shane sure had a way with words..."monstrous little powder", paints a picture. It seems difficult to find accounts of actual powder charges used though. It's a shame. A mundane detail that probably wasn't recorded much. :idunno:

I've read in the past that the animals in the old days were much less wired for flight during encounters with man. If so, smaller charges would be all the more satisfactory.

As kids, we often quizzed each other about time machine travel. The overwhelming majority said, if possible, they would choose to go forward, into the future. The usual standout wanted to go way back in time to see what true unspoiled nature looked like and to visit with and learn about the ways of the first people. That neighborhood kid wore feathers when playing "cowboys and Indians".

Best regards, Skychief

 

[Black Hand]

I load 75gr of FFFg for a 20 gauge. Now, I don't shoot deer at 75 yards with a smoothbore, but with practice, I suspect it could be done with success.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Here's Another Theory...,

There's an old method of loading a smooth bore, and I think it was sometimes used for a rifle.

Put the round ball in the palm of your hand. Pour powder over the ball in your hand, until the ball is covered. Use your thumb to anchor the ball in your palm, and pour the palm-full of powder down the bore.....

Now, you could simply follow the powder with the ball, OR probably get better results by stuffing tow, a piece of hornet's nest, etc down after the powder, then follow that with the ball, and something to hold the ball in place.

So I'd suggest you try that but pour the powder into a funnel in a measure, then see how much powder you got.

:idunno:

LD

 

[Britsmoothy]

I have used that method when I forgot my measure.
Still here :thumbsup:

B.

 

[Ron LaClair]

Going back to my boyhood I've had a fascination with the Natives of our country. Still do. Rarely if ever seen today, I, and likely many here, played "cowboys and Indians" when adolescents. Guess who wore feathers in my neighborhood

Skychief, me too. This is me in my Indian outfit in 1945 when I was 9 years old on the farm. My pinto pony's name was Scout. I had a bow and arrow bought from the catalog and an ancient old single shot shotgun that we found in the rafters of the barn that I'm sure wouldn't fire.

 

[Britsmoothy]

:thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[Rifleman1776]

I've read in the past that the animals in the old days were much less wired for flight during encounters with man.

Lots of good advice and experience posted here so far on this thread. But, methinks the above is more legend than fact. I can walk up to within about 10 feet of the many deer around my property and there is no flight. Stalking is not that difficult. When I was in Washington state many years ago we just about had to kick mule deer in the rump to get them to run/walk off. My wife once had a black bear walk up to her while she was deer hunting. She could have whacked it on the nose with her rifle.