Matchlock pistols?

[Henry]

So , there are two positions :
A- wait untill evidence is shown before spending hard earned
money .

B - buy something that could have existed and is easier
to make and/or cheaper to buy than the hard fact documented
thing . In this case , if one does not yet have the horse ,
the " training cavalry weapon " ( :rotf: ) might be a good buy ,
unless one hopes to use it in an event where my unit has
any authority . :nono:

Being both cheap and snob , I opt for the A otion .

 

[Bob Riegl]

:bow: Suffice it to say there were Matchlock pistols and those are in currently existing collections all over the world. I think artistic license exists in every nook and cranny, specially in reproduction firearms. Where those of us who also dabble in historic firearms of the flintlock and caplock era we have many museums and collectors who have originals. Therefore the better gun builders can give us more than a reasonable facsimile of a Dickert, Early, Late Lancaster, Tennessee etc. Most of my Medieval firearms, gonnes and matchlocks, plans & pictures were taken from published manuscripts with originals used where possible and as far as I am concerned I am quite satisfied. I do not have to stand up to the PC police and defend what I own and do with my reproductions, I allow no one to spoil my fun. You are quite correct that the horse may be the only accoutrement that they couldn't argue with, to even include a Clydesdale, unless they also want validity appurtenances for the horse as well. :yakyak:

 

[arquebus]

I received a reply to my email to Argentina this morning. Unfortunately, it was in Spanish so, with the help of Spanish/English website I have attempted to do a translation. Below is a copy of the original message from the manufacturer & my translation. Maybe some one out there with a better grasp of Spanish will do better!

In Spanish:
La pistola de mecha que reproduzco esuna copia de una que cita Mc Crory en su libro Militay Pistols 1600-1800. En el hace referencia a una version de pistola de mecha utilizada para entrenamiento por la caballeria alemana, construida sobre la base de una de rueda, pero por su bajo costo comparado con la de rueda, permitia ser usada para entrenamiento. es historicamente correcta. Ya he mandado algunas a europa y ee uu.
In English:
The wick pistol that I reproduce is a copy of one which is mentioned by Mc Crory in his book Military Pistols 1600-1800. It makes reference to a version of pistol of wick used for training by German cavalry, constructed on the base of one of wheel, but by its low cost compared with the one of wheel, permitted it to be used for training. She is historically correct. I have already sent some to Europe and the U.S.A..

Seems we don't have alot more information to PROVE this pistols authenticity, does anyone on the forum have a copy of the mentioned book? Here's a couple more photos of the lock & a top view.....it appears to have both front & rear sights.

 

[Bob Riegl]

:v That is the same one I have seen before on this web site???? That is some beautiful reproduction, certainly not manufactured in India or Pakistan. Beautiful finish on the metal parts and the stock. Quite obviously it's not going to be a cheap weapon, by the time it gets past customs etc. I have heard ofsuch book, but do not have same in my library. Books like this are often out of print & tend to be too expensive to purchase. He (sic) mentions that this matchlock (one of wick)was used to train German Cavalry instead of using a more expensive Wheelock (one of wheel). So some provenance is offered by this manufacturer in order to gain our faith. Surely the work done in the manufacture of this matchlock is extensive, and not as "crude" as other reproductions. I am sure that some extra effort will uncover the fact of this guns authenticity as a reproduction, once again too expensive for someone to throw away money manufacturing a piece such as this. BTW book searches have failed to uncover a copy of this book---there must be some more information around regarding this book---such as Publisher and date of publication, an ISBN number. The name given doesn't come up in any used book searches I have gone through.

 

[arquebus]

They are made in Argentina. If you go to the website[url] http://www.osvaldogatto.com[/url].ar/ it'll show you the workshops, etc. They also make other pistols, some long-guns, a range of daggers, a big line of scale & full-size cannons! As I mentioned in a previous post in this thread, the Matchlock Pistol sells for US$550 including shipping to the U.S. I'm tempted to get one, even if it proves not to be 100% historically correct, as it looks like it could be a decent/fun shooter.....& isn't that what it's all about for most of us!

 

[Bob Riegl]

:grin: Well I'm with you on that , while $550 isn't exactly pocket change but let's see if we can find a distributor for the item or how one would go about arranging for the purchase. :hmm:

 

[arquebus]

They are supposed to have a U.S. Distributor set up by July 2007. They also said you can buy direct by sending the money via Western Union.

By the way, I found this other link about the Polish/Lithuanian Cavalry using matchlock pistols after 1570. Unfortunately there were no pictures of the pistols! [url] http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolishFirearms.htm[/url]

 

[Henry]

I do not have to stand up to the PC police and defend what I own and do with my reproductions, I allow no one to spoil my fun.

I have no intention of spoiling your fun as long as you do not
try to spoil my history .

 

[benvenuto]

the only Mcrory I have been able to find is:
The Modern Kentucky Rifle - how to build your own, R.H. McCrory, 3rd Ed. Publ. by McCrory, 1968

Surely something like this would have been covered in Winant's "Firearms curiosa"?

 

[arquebus]

Well, it took some doing but I've been able to find a photo of an original european matchlock pistol!! Actually it's a toy pistol that the Royal Armouries Museum in Leeds, England recently (2003) purchased along with another. They say that it is early 17th century & was found in Essex. Even though it is a toy pistol it is apparently vented & the barrel bored full length, so was apparently functional!! The lug below the barrel is a ramrod entry pipe.

I'm still waiting on a copy of a book I ordered that may have some additional photos of matchlock pistols, plus forum member Bartek from Poland is doing a search for more evidence of their being used in that country. It'll be interesting to see what else turns up!

 

[Henry]

Lovely , I will make one someday !
Any indication of its size ?

Still ,it does not look much like the one at the beginning of
this discussion .

 

[arquebus]

No, it doesn't look like the one we were initially talking about, but it's a step in the right direction to 'prove' that they actually existed in the day. The overall length of the pistol is 4.63 in (117.7mm).

Here's the description of the pistol, as supplied by the museum's curator:

XII.11421
Toy pistol
British, early 17th century
Matchlock, made of brass with a steel spring. The stock and barrel are an integral brass casting. The butt portion terminates in an octagonal acorn shaped finial. The portion immediately forward of the lock mechanism terminates in an abrupt step beneath the barrel. On the front face of this step is a hole which served as a seating for the tip of the ramrod (now missing). The barrel is octagonal. At the breech end, a pan is cast with the barrel; beneath the muzzle, and a little to rearward of it, a projection serves as the front housing for the ramrod. The upper central flat of the barrel, and the two flanking flats, are decorated with wavy lines produced by punch marks. At approximately the mid point, these three faces are cut across with two pairs of incised lines. The mechanism is attached to the outer face of the stock where the lockplate would be on the full sized specimen. The nmechanism itself consists simply of a trigger, cranked to bring it beneath the stock, and has a forward projection with a pin projecting sidewards to link with the serpentine. The serpentine itself conforms approximately with full-size specimens except that the presence of corrosion products makes it difficult to ascertain if it would be capable of holding a match cord. At its fulcrum, a small side boss has a hole in it and into which the pin of the trigger extension engages. Both trigger and serpentine are secured to the body of the pistol by round headed screws. At the foremost end of the stock, just before its termination, a third screw secures a leaf spring, now weakened, projecting rearwards and the tip of which rests in a groove in the trigger to prevent it sliiping sideways. Pulling the trigger against the spring would cause the serpentine to partially rotate, bringing the match into the pan. The pan is vented and the barrel appears to be bored for its full length; presumably the toy would have worked.
Dimensions overall length: 4.63 in (117.7mm)

 

[Henry]

overall length: 4.63 in ,
No doubt , it is a toy .

 

[arquebus]

Yes, but it's a functioning toy for some lucky (well-to-do) 17th century rugrat.....much like today's BB guns, but more fun I should think!
My point in posting the pictures & info. on this toy matchlock is that toys are generally a child's version of an adult item which, to me at least, suggests that matchlock pistols must have existed at that, or a previous, time.

 

[arquebus]

Henry said: Still ,it does not look much like the one at the beginning of
this discussion .

Actually, it's not that far removed in style from Middlesex Village's offering:

 

[Henry]

Yes , You are right ! ( I was thinking of the one made in Argentina ) So we now know the Middlesex Village repro
is based on an genuine gun .

I am convinced .

 

[Bob Riegl]

:bow: Still waiting for mine from MTV mebbe another month before their new shipment comes in :hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[Light Dragoon]

Actually, firing the wheellock pistol with the lock upright was the standard method of shooting them during Cavalry engagements during the 16th and 17th Centuries. Not simply artists, but the various books that passed for manuals of the 16th and 17th Centuries stated the same thing. Henri VI of France (aka Henri of Navarre) gave specific orders to his troops to do so, as did the Duc d'Anguin some 50 years later. They may not go off as quickly as when the top layer of powder flashes off and ignites the main charge through the touch-hole, but it's definitely sure-fire that way, which was all that mattered.

Per matchlock pistols, well... they're probably a lot of fun, but would not be of much use on the battlefield. Minor things like dropping burning matchcord on your horse's neck when fumbling with it would tend to make things somewhat awkward at best. :winking:

On the other hand, what the heck, if you want to make one and shoot it, more power to you. I made one myself when I was a kid, back when I wanted to be Taras Bulba. I couldn't swing a wheellock, so I built a matchlock pistol instead. Thank GOD black powder is fairly forgiving! :shocked2:

Cheers,

Gordon

 

[ChrisPer]

Could this be the reference?[url] http://www.rayrilingarmsbooks.com/cgi-bin/rrb455.cgi/10292.html[/url]

McCrory, R. H.
PISTOLS OF THE 1600S - A VIDEO.
One hour, fifteen minutes of seven pistols in detail, inside and out. They are English Snaphaunce Pistol 1600-1620, English Military Pistol with English Lock 1640, English Military Pistol with Lock of Wheellock Shape 1640, English Doglock Pistol 1650-1660, English Military Flintlock Pistol 1660, Germanic Wheellock Military Pistol 1640-1660, English Military Flintlock Pistol 1685-1688. Three other wheellock pistols are shown briefly, one of which, is the subject of the disassembly of its lock and discussion of how it works.

Date Published: 1995

 

[arquebus]

ChrisPer, nice find, might be worth a look. Does anyone out there know if 'English Lock' might refer to a matchlock?