Length of Pull, Drop, Offset - Any rules of thumb as to what is best for a person?

[Sartana]

I have been reading about Length of Pull, Drop and Cast Off and trying to figure out what may or may not work for me. I currently have a Kibler Colonial gun which, according to their page, has the the following details: "pull of about 13 5/8” and a drop of approximately 2 3/4” and cast off of approximately 3/16" . That is all well and good, and the gun feels comfortable to me, but as I am new to this, how do I know? One option is to try others guns, but I don't really know folks with muzzleloaders so that is not a great option for me. I love the Southern Mountain guns and note they have a more significant drop. I was looking at some of them and they have a drop of upwards of 4.5" and a pull of 14.5". As I can not get one of those in my hands, do I tangle with building something like that? Are there some guidelines as to what should generally work for a person, based on their height and reach? For the record, I am 6'4" with arms to match. Thank you for any feedback.....

 

[Phil Coffins]

I have notes on how to build a modern rifle or shot gun stock and set these measurements but they don’t really apply to traditional muzzle loaders. The style of holding a crescent butt rifle is entirely different than a modern gun.

 

[GANGGREEN]

I'm only 5ft 8in and I prefer a 14 inch length of pull, so I'm not sure there's any standard measurement. That said, I have guns from a hair over 13in to a bit over 14 in and they're all easy enough to shoot. I think as long as you're not talking about something really short or something with extreme drop, most of the guns are comfortable enough to shoot. As has been mentioned, guns with a sharp hook in the butt plate mount differently than those with a flatter butt.

 

[Notchy Bob]

These are great questions. I don't know if there are any simple answers. I am small, by today's standards... About five foot six. Also thin, about eight and a half stone, last time I checked. I could probably handle your Kibler Colonial while wearing summer clothes, based on the measurements you provided, although about a half inch less in the length of pull (LOP) would be more comfortable, and would be needed if wearing heavy clothes.

"Drop" is another matter. You can think of the breech of the rifle as sort of a pivot point. If a long gun has excessive drop for your body type and build, and you get the butt in a comfortable position on your shoulder, the barrel gets tilted below your line of sight and you have to hunt for the front sight. For me, if the drop is much over three inches, the gun becomes increasingly difficult to aim.

I know stocks for "southern mountain rifles" (SMRs) often have a lot of drop. Interestingly, I recently read Horace Kephart's Classic book, Our Southern Highlanders. Kephart was not a trained ethnographer or a physical anthropologist, but he did discuss the ethnic homogeneity of the mountain folk he knew in western North Carolina and East Tennessee in the late 19th and very early 20th centuries, and he described the typical body type of the men as tall and thin. That body type would fit pretty well with a rifle stock that had a longer LOP and more drop.

"Cast off" is something else. I have handled a few old percussion English doubles, and noted cast off of about half an inch. These point like a dream. Close your eyes, shoulder the gun, then open your eyes and the front sight bead is right there. I don't think you see that much cast in rifle stocks, in general, and I believe a lot of the current crop of percussion double shotguns have very straight stocks, with minimal castoff. This can make them harder to point, although I suppose you could get used to it.

I'll look forward to reading what others may have to say on the topic. Getting these measurements right can make all the difference in a rifle's "shootability," and excessive LOP or drop can be a deal breaker for me, in considering a purchase.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Col. Batguano]

You will shoulder the gun different in different positions, which affects LOP. A gun intended for shooting primarily in the standing and kneeling position will need a shorter LOP than one intended primarily for prone. That's part of the reason precision rifle stocks have horizontal combs and extendable butt stocks.

You see best when you eye is centered in the middle of the socket, and your head isn't canted.

Since our traditional guns (with the exception of German Jaegers and English Sporting guns) generally have angled combs, the further forward you place your cheek weld the less drop there will be from the line of sight. I suggest you get a gun to shoulder many times with a butt plate of a similar contour to the one you are thinking of building and measure just where you naturally want to place your cheek as a distance from the butt.

Then see where your eye aligns with your face in a vertical position looking out the middle of your eye socket relative to the sights.

It's a relatively simple matter from here to simply invert the gun on a flat surface (using the sights not the barrel) and do the measuring.

Length of pull is of lesser importance, as, most people with a rifle can adjust a surprising amount, but you want the trigger placed so that your index finger engages it in the middle of the pad before the first knuckle so that you are not "dragging wood" with too straight a finger, or having to overly curl the finger. For most standing position intended rifles (for most people in street clothes) the most comfortable LOP is going be around 13 1/2" give or take 1/4".

Comb shape is another variable. The absolute BEST way to get all this stuff is to build yourself a "try gun" out of plywood with adjustment features that will let you vary the butt pitch, various drops and cast on / off, and cant (toe-in / toe out). I personally like about 3/16" of cast-off at my cheek, and about 1/4" of toe-in, with a 1 11/16" drop from the sight line, but everybody's face, shooting style, and physique is a little bit different. The other advantage of a try gun (with a comb made out of a piece of inexpensive lumber) is that you can do some experimenting as to what shape is the most comfortable for you. I like a little bit of a harder edge to help me get a more consistent cheek weld on my smaller caliber guns, but a more rounded one on the bigger stuff (to avoid the painful cheek slap).

Every gun and shooter is a little bit different though. Since you're building it to suit YOU, that's the advantage of building from a blank rather than fro a pre-carve too.

Hope that helps some.

The "How to build" books contain drawings of how to make yourself a try gun.

 

[nhmoose]

Reason why a good English gunsmith fits a gun with a TRY stock. All measurements adjustable cast off or on, length drop at comb, drop at heel. Pitch. all are important for a Personal fit.

That costs money and as a poor guy growing up I fit to the stocking of factory guns quite well. As I got older and had more money I would try for a better fit. I used to shoot trap and spent several thousands of dollars getting a gun to let me shoot a 200. That's all it did as birds are not like clay but they are fun.