Lead ball over 6 shot?

[Lonegun1894]

Here is an issue that comes to mind. We have all heard the old saying "less powder, more lead..." Well, if your powder charge is appropriate for good patterns with your shot load, will there be enough powder to get good performance out of the extra weight when you add a RB to it. And adding more powder from the start isn't a good solution either cause if you blow your pattern before it gets to the squirrel, it doesn't do much good either.

Would it be rude to recommend maybe thinking about picking up a SxS and loading one barrel with shot and the other with RB? Good patterns and a safe solution.

 

[Zonie]

For good or bad, adding a bore fitting ball on top of a charge of shot is going to reduce the muzzle velocity. The question is, how much?

Without information about a 20 guage load I used the 12 guage shot loads listed in the "Lymans Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual" to find the velocities produced with a fixed 3 dram (82 gr) powder load.

I did this based on the idea mancill had not changed the powder load when he added his roundball on top of the shot.

The 12 guage data says using 3 drams of GOEX 2Fg powder the following velocities will be created.

1 oz shot load = 1160 fps
1 1/8 oz shot load = 980 fps
1 1/4 oz shot load = 900 fps
1 1/2 oz shot load = 800 fps

Doing some fancy math called linear regression my calculator came up with some factors to predict velocities based on the shot load weight.

While I'll be the first to admit the predictions are not very accurate they will suffice to demonstrate what I'm getting at.

If the existing shot load was the one ounce load (437 grains) and suddenly a .690 diameter roundball was added on top of it (remember, we are talking about a 12 guage) that ball would add 494 grains of weight making the total load of lead about 984 grains.

My calculator predicts a 984 grain load of lead over a 3 dram powder load in a 12 guage will be leaving the muzzle at about 265 fps.

While that figure may be wrong for the 12 guage and it might be even more wrong with a 20 guage, the logic behind it isn't.

Adding a bore size ball on top of a load of shot is going to drastically reduce the muzzle velocity.

While a squirrel or a dove might not notice the difference, a thick skinned hog with his layer of cartilage under his hide will.

What might have been a killing blow if only the ball was loaded over the powder will just upset him greatly if the ball was loaded on top of an existing shot charge.

I don't recommend doing what mancill is thinking about. :td:

 

[larry wv]

As I have said check the penetration. If weak cut back a bit on the shot. A few have not figured out that he would only load the ball if he has a hog close. Not many people going to hunt Squirrel with a big ball AND shot. This is not for you Zonie just following.

Larry

 

[coloradoclyde]

Bravo Zonie.... :bow:


I've always been of the opinion that 1oz was that the most that should be fired from a 20 ga. and 1 3/8 from 12 ga.
Anything more and you lose performance.....

 

[TNGhost]

I understand what your saying Zonie. I would say in order to do it sucessfully, you would have to sacrifice on both ends. In other words, loading the shot, you would have to anticipate the possibility of adding a ball.

Upon initially loading your shot load for the squirrels, you would have to go heavy on the powder and light on the shot(I know, not good for patterns), in preparation for the possibility of loading the ball on top, should you see a hog.

Of course you would have to be mindful of the max load recommended for your gun, but looking at load tables, ball weights and shot charges from various sources, DGW, Lyman and The Black Powder Loading Manual, it could be done, 12 or 20.

Using one of the lighter lead substitute balls would help(or even a steel ball bearing :haha: ), by keeping total weight down, allowing for more shot/added velocity. Velocity would be lower than a single ball, but sufficient.

The "trick" part of the question? If hogs are a high probability, andyou like pork, best carry a rifle,.40-.50. Good for rats and pigs, no fooling around with loading, no worries about terminal ballistics. :wink:

 

[TNGhost]

Correct!... :thumbsup:
His question was either a poor attempt at a trick question or nonsensical due to lack of understanding that combining ball and shot can never be equal in weight to a single ball.......
And that If you increase the weight of the payload by adding a ball, recoil will also increase.....

Here's a trick question for ya, that'll answer your question about my question about your statement about buck and ball kicking like a mule.

What weighs more, a pound of lead or a pound of feathers?

 

[coloradoclyde]

What weighs more, a pound of lead or a pound of feathers?

The fact that you had to ask that question.....Answers all of mine.......

 

[TNGhost]

What weighs more, a pound of lead or a pound of feathers?

The fact that you had to ask that question.....Answers all of mine.......

Good, I'm glad I could put your mind at ease.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Good, I'm glad I could put your mind at ease.

It was never unsettled.........
But just knowing that you care is....something......

 

[Lonegun1894]

I still stand by my idea of a SxS if you can't decide what you want to hunt that day, or decide and stick with a single barrel, but be ready to pass up on a shot if you see something other than what you decided to hunt that day. Or you could just use a RB regardless of intended animal, and aim for the head on squirrel. You will either make meat, or get a clean miss, and still be able to take hog. I mean, I know I can't be the only one here who has been told to not carry enough gun for the smallest thing that I happen to be hunting, but rather to carry enough gun to take the biggest meanest thing in the woods with me.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Well I've seen the gun carried by Paints His Shirt Red, the lone Indian encountered by Robert Redford in Jeremiah Johnson, and a closeup of the Indian shows a rifled barrel next to a smoothbore in a SxS....so yes that's a pretty good idea even if both barrels are smooth.

Zonie Wrote:

While a squirrel or a dove might not notice the difference, a thick skinned hog with his layer of cartilage under his hide will.

What might have been a killing blow if only the ball was loaded over the powder will just upset him greatly if the ball was loaded on top of an existing shot charge.

And getting a feral hog or a wild boar "upset" in such a manner..., is truly a very bad idea... :shocked2: :nono: :shake:

LD

 

[TNGhost]

Well I've seen the gun carried by Paints His Shirt Red, the lone Indian encountered by Robert Redford in Jeremiah Johnson, and a closeup of the Indian shows a rifled barrel next to a smoothbore in a SxS....so yes that's a pretty good idea even if both barrels are smooth.

Zonie Wrote:

While a squirrel or a dove might not notice the difference, a thick skinned hog with his layer of cartilage under his hide will.

What might have been a killing blow if only the ball was loaded over the powder will just upset him greatly if the ball was loaded on top of an existing shot charge.

And getting a feral hog or a wild boar "upset" in such a manner..., is truly a very bad idea... :shocked2: :nono: :shake:

LD

And why would that be?

 

[coloradoclyde]

And why would that be?

Why would what be?

 

[Grumpa]

:metoo: on the "Bravo, Zonie. A most informative post.

I also agree wholeheartedly, CC, that if the porker is close, the #6 shot alone will do the job. (And the shot in the meat will be no worse than it would be in a squirrel, or bird.)

 

[Historian]

You need to know the total weight of the entire projectile mass. If you load 1 oz. of loose shot for squirrels under a ball you might be pushing close to 2 oz's of lead. If that is not backed by a sufficient amount of powder you might have a very angry hog on your hands. I would not do it. If you are really worried about hogs carry a BP single shot pistol. That's what I would do. In the end it is up to you. :wink:

 

[tom deinek]

Why would a combination load kick any harder than a single ball or homogeneous shot load of the same weight?

What does milk have to do with a shot load?

 

[TNGhost]

Why would a combination load kick any harder than a single ball or homogeneous shot load of the same weight?

What does milk have to do with a shot load?

Milk? Well milk comes from cows, and cows live on a farm. Pigs live on a farm too, and sometimes they escape an live in the wild. In the wild they do damage so people hunt them. Sometimes they hunt them with blackpowder guns, by accident, when hunting for squirrels. When hunting for squirrels they use shot, but need balls to kill pigs, that are causing the damage and came from the farm, where the cows are, that gave the milk.

Got it?

 

[coloradoclyde]

Why would a combination load kick any harder than a single ball or homogeneous shot load of the same weight?

What does milk have to do with a shot load?

From what I've seen, the affinity for milk probably comes from not having been weaned yet.....
It certainly would explain a lot.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Why would a combination load kick any harder than a single ball or homogeneous shot load of the same weight?

What does milk have to do with a shot load?

The process of mixing milk is homogenization.

A load of shot that is of the same material such as shot size is homogeneous. Milk has nothing to do with the topic. I suspect that you knew that.

Now for why a load of shot under a lead ball kicks harder is that it weighs more, so it takes more force to move it out of the barrel. We feel that extra force as kick. A load of shot that weighs the same as the ball will have the same felt recoil.

 

[Claude Mathis]

You guys need to stop this public display and keep your personal feud out of the forums.