Landsknecht Arquebus and Petronel

[Wncman]

These look like fun guns to master.
I looked at a club butt match lock yesterday at the CLA show. Kinda got a hankering

 

[TobJohn]

These look like fun guns to master.
I looked at a club butt match lock yesterday at the CLA show. Kinda got a hankering

That’s the plan! My only previous shooting experience is skeet and a matchlock once, so it will be a good test to see how hard it actually is to learn matchlock shooting.

According to the book on colonial Fowlers, the club butt matchlock is where the club butt Fowler evolved from.

 

[TobJohn]

I took the landsknecht arquebus out for some test shots yesterday and it’s an absolute joy to shoot. When you aren’t used to any other system, the button trigger actually works really well. Your hand is naturally in position on it and it is light enough that pressing it doesn’t move the gun at all. The ramrod also had a brass tip with a hidden ball puller, so that solved my conundrum on what to use for loading.

There was an unforeseen technical problem with the petronel, so that will be tested another day.

 

[RAEDWALD]

Their ‘ague’ was poisoning from the zinc fumes as some of the zinc in the molten brass sublimed into the air I would imagine.

I knew hand cut special file makers & Brass founders . who did my yellow brass gun mounts .I was some times there in a pour and it was a smoke filled little 'Dantes inferno' of smoke . they wore a Jesse James like face mask & shut the Georgian windows lest a squall come up as they poured It gave us a headache the 'Ague' you could call it .

 

[Rudyard]

Their ‘ague’ was poisoning from the zinc fumes as some of the zinc in the molten brass sublimed into the air I would imagine.

Yes bit like having Malaria not much fun but thede done it years in the old Cornish Place Dixon Factory the river Don flows past it was reckoned many a muffed up item got chucked into the Don Old Jack Toyne was still makeing snuff & pill boxes but nothing like the flat out days .I knew old Milo Dixon he showed me there samples rooms I still bought stuff when they moved to Heeley but it didn't last .I tried to get the ' Courtship & Children' flask recreated as a limited offering been very pertainant at that time it wasnt cast it was electro formed . I Teed it all up but had to go work in a Museum in Calgary & without me it fizzled out perhaps not so bad considering the later difficulties .Mick Marsh tops ,die chaser in town been a good seller I thought well known flask but few if any more made .Same with' A'hunting we will go' flask I've only seen such electro formed flask's as parts the owner now dead .I borrowed from Dixon s& copied their 'Maroon Book' which was the shop floor costings book but I let Ian Ford have my info he & De Witt Bailey had an excellent flask book printed Ime mentioned but never bought one .
Rudyard reflecting

 

[TobJohn]

I just got back from testing the petronel at the range.

~20yards, .490 balls, 45 grains of 2f, and tow on either side of the ball.

I initially tried to use a cheek hold, but doing that with a good sight picture involved putting my cheek directly behind the gun. Even with the light load, it was still a noticeably uncomfortable amount of recoil going directly into my face.

Next, I tried holding the gun out in front of me, kind of like the old school way to hold an mp5k. Surprisingly, I could consistently hit the target, despite no experience, but it does seem like any other system would be better. Cleary, there is some other factor that must have lead to the use of these stocks, especially because these sharply curved examples came after the proper shoulder stock.

 

[rickystl]

Hi John. At the moment, it would seem that your second attempt may have been how these petronels were held for firing (?) Keeping the butt stock away from a breast plate (?) But if that was the case, it would not require so much extra butt stock wood. Hmmmm. Is the area of the butt stock you grip with your right hand wide or narrow ? Photo if you have one.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Here is how I was holding it at the range:

Here are some grip pictures, with a ruler:

I think the rest of the grip may just be pure fashion, or to help rest on while loading? If this were a horseback gun, as some sources have claimed, it could help to grab it from the saddle or sheath, but the amount of art showing infantry with them (and conversely, only a singular artists depiction of cavalry with them) makes that seem irrelevant.

 

[Sam squanch]

They wore those ruffed collars back when the Petronels were used. Maybe the old boys shot them like the way you did to avoid messing them up. Or maybe the first Petronels were stocked from a curved tree trunk for strength, and the later ones just followed suit….u til we get a good Time Machine- we will never know!

 

[Sam squanch]

PS, you have a big black dot on your shirt…..

 

[TobJohn]

PS, you have a big black dot on your shirt…..

I know what you internet creeps are into. Don't want you to have any identifying information.

 

[Sam squanch]

We need some experimental archeology…. Someone loan TobJohn a ruffed collar!

 

[Sam squanch]

Hey, I resemble that remark!

 

[Rudyard]

The way the Jap ones where held or the wheellocks that had cheek pieces the fore hand grips the fore end in such a manner as to counter the recoiling & the cheek is held enough to sight the sights , I see the natural curve on the wood does conform to the ideal .Still takes a bold man to fire either sort .( Its probably how Hockey was invented ).
Whimsical Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

Since the petronel has both front and rear sights, it was designed to be aimed versus just pointed. So it would appear that the way John is holding in the photo was the only way to get a sight picture. So maybe the way John is holding/aiming it was the way it was done ? Especially if you include wearing a breastplate. Possibly the extra wood on the butt stock was to also act as a bit of counter weight to balance the gun while aiming ? Also, "style" seemed to be important during this period.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Since the petronel has both front and rear sights, it was designed to be aimed versus just pointed. So it would appear that the way John is holding in the photo was the only way to get a sight picture. So maybe the way John is holding/aiming it was the way it was done ? Especially if you include wearing a breastplate. Possibly the extra wood on the butt stock was to also act as a bit of counter weight to balance the gun while aiming ? Also, "style" seemed to be important during this period.

Rick

Art of arquebusiers with petronels almost always shows them with morions or cabasset helmets. Maybe the lack of shoulder or cheek stock helps when using them with the bulky cheek straps and wide brims on these helmets?

Extra wood as a counter weight is great theory and also helps explain how all types of petronel have a part of the stock extend behind the hand grip and possible (?) cheek stock for some of the other styles

 

[rickystl]

Art of arquebusiers with petronels almost always shows them with morions or cabasset helmets. Maybe the lack of shoulder or cheek stock helps when using them with the bulky cheek straps and wide brims on these helmets?

That's sort of what I was also thinking. Holding the petronel in the way of your photo seems the only way to get a sight picture while wearing a breastplate and helmet. Starting to make a little more sense now.

 

[TobJohn]

That's sort of what I was also thinking. Holding the petronel in the way of your photo seems the only way to get a sight picture while wearing a breastplate and helmet. Starting to make a little more sense now.

Art of arquebusiers before and musketeers after rarely depict them with helmets, so that could further reinforce why petronels were ubiquitous for 30 years and then completely disappeared.

 

[TobJohn]

That's sort of what I was also thinking. Holding the petronel in the way of your photo seems the only way to get a sight picture while wearing a breastplate and helmet. Starting to make a little more sense now.

I’ll ask this little guy if he has any insight

 

[Peter de KAM]

If you watch the Japanese movies of the time where common infantry were using matchlocks against samurai you will see that the infantry held their weapons four to five inches away from their faces. I'm hoping this analog helps.