A strange snapping matchlock musket at the Met

[TobJohn]

While looking through online collections for examples of snapping matchlocks, I came across this interesting one:
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/33874?ft=matchlock&offset=0&rpp=40&pos=7

The provenance is that it is originally from the Graz Armory, but the museum acquired it from a third party in the early 20th century.

It has several unusual features.

The lock is a perfect match with the wall gun lock from the matchlock chronology thread:
A matchlock chronology, ca. 1520 to 1720 - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

Michael's estimate put the lock from around the 1550s, which given their resemblance would put this lock (and maybe gun) at the same time.

Given the size and weight of this gun (almost 12 pounds and a .688 cal) it is an actual musket, which makes it one of the only pure snap lock muskets I have seen.

One obvious weird feature is how far back the trigger is on the gun:

This makes more sense with the ergonomics of a wall gun, but looks very strange on a musket:

The wall gun has a fully enclosed trigger guard, while this piece is open in the back and is reminiscent of the trigger and bar setup on combination lock petronels:

The stock shape on the musket is also relatively modern looking, so could possibly be a wall gun that was restocked for infantry use, which would explain the weird mishmash of features and design:

I sent a message to the museum asking if the stock color is original and if the gun has a metal buttplate because I could not tell from the angles of the photos.

Overall I think it is an interesting piece and figured someone here might think so too.

 

[russellshaffer]

A very pretty musket. I wish I had one like it.

 

[TobJohn]

The Met has a beautiful collection of arms and armor. Really justifies guns as art.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

I think that due to the sheer size ... the trigger is placed appropriately for shooting from the shoulder, barrel rested, so one can reach the trigger.

They also didn't throw anything away and I've seen old lockplates that are not snaphaunce locks, but one can see the lineage from where it once may have been a matchlock or wheelock, or having been both before its latest incarnation!

The stock does, however, look newer that the hardware. Ahhhhh, if only they could talk and tell us their tales ... if only!

 

[TobJohn]

I think that due to the sheer size ... the trigger is placed appropriately for shooting from the shoulder, barrel rested, so one can reach the trigger.

They also didn't throw anything away and I've seen old lockplates that are not snaphaunce locks, but one can see the lineage from where it once may have been a matchlock or wheelock, or having been both before its latest incarnation!

The stock does, however, look newer that the hardware. Ahhhhh, if only they could talk and tell us their tales ... if only!

Going off of the information on their webpage, this one has changed hands multiple times, so the chance of knowing its real story is small

From what I have read and seen, many older arms were refurbished to compensate the attrition during the 30 years war, which this seems like a great candidate for.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Graz has still a spectacular display as far as I know John.
I am quite sure there will be no buttplate but this is just my thoughts on it.

When this arm was built, there was not today's expectations of how the stocking up should be done, so we do see some rather weird and wonderful
styles from our perspective!
This gun looks well enough preserved to have come from Graz.
When I first saw the one in Michael's thread, I commented how I'd like to make a serpent with this style of tensioner; a sliding ring that tightens the jaws on the tinder as it goes forward! very neat and not yet done this type!

 

[TobJohn]

When I first saw the one in Michael's thread, I commented how I'd like to make a serpent with this style of tensioner; a sliding ring that tightens the jaws on the tinder as it goes forward! very neat and not yet done this type!

I missed that detail. Fascinating design!

 

[TobJohn]

I am quite sure there will be no buttplate but this is just my thoughts on it.

Looking back at the photos (the museum has not emailed me back) I think you are right. I had assumed that most fishtail shaped stocks had buttplates, but that is not really based on anything.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Thing is John,
This "Fishtail" is earlier than the Fishtail fishtails....if you see what I mean!

 

[Codger Craig Wilcox]

Richard - Laird Bundook - how many matchlock guns do you have? And how many are the Toradar (Indian) type? These are all totally fascinating to me. Especially as how they are made yet today to 4- or 500-year-old patterns.

Save me one of your skunk hides. the last one I did, I tried to remove the tail bone with a hatchet - missed and hit the dad-gummed scent gland with the blade. Memorable occasion, to be sure...

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Good evening Craig,
While I love the history of India, and the often Hindu symbolism found on these arms, I only have two working ones, plus three or four barrels to stock up.

 

[Codger Craig Wilcox]

Richard, it is no wonder about the different names for items in "India". There are, I think 26 different "states", or what used to be Kingdoms (Rajahdoms???). And each state has a different language! And yes, there is a "National Language", Hindi.
So, each citizen speaks at least three different languages. He/she will speak Hindi, English, and their state language.
What a twisted-up country!
I am all twisted up also. That damned Agent Orange, all the way from 1966, is plaguing me badly. Getting more and more difficult to get around, breathing is hard, and I have a tremor that's worse than someone with Parkinson's. Got, I think, 18 or 19 different pill bottles, and other nostrums and ointments. I thank Heaven daily for my animals, they kind of keep me going. Sunny Girl is my Service Dog, helps me walk, keeps the PTSD at bay. But, like me, she is getting old. At least 15, and that is old for a Yellow Lab. For Christmas last year I got a young Standard Poodle (red in colour) to train as her replacement. But he is like someone o methamphetamines 24/7. Samrt dog, to be sure, but too damned jumpy and antsy. I need to find him another home - he is very smart, very loveable, but his jittery-ness - - - Jimminy Crickets!
I also have 4 boy cats. So a lot of my time is fixing their food, looking after the poodle and the four cats AND Sunny Girl. Yikes!
The tremor in my hands makes it about impossible to hold and place a chisel, or a hand drill. I do have a good drill press, and a great little 7 x 17 micro lathe. And 6 C & B pistols, a couple flint pistols, and a few long guns, including a really nice double 15 smoothbore made in England about 1850 or so. Lovely engraving on that one. I also have a pretty good, but plain, double 10 bore - needs a new stock, so I have been trying to make one from some great English Walnut. About as hard as a walnut, also! And I cannot get the bent percussion nipples out of it!
Aww - blowing off steam, I am! It just plain hurts to move around much. And if it weren't winter, I'd come to Canada and spout off in person! Your PM hasn't yet banned muzzle loaders yet, has he?
Be good, and keep telling us about all the true antiques. Still amazing to me how literally uneducated gunsmiths can make some of those pretty old guns, and still make all those parts pieces just the way they were made 400 years ago.
Antique Craig

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Craig,
You sound in rough shape old sport!
I will ask my daughter if she knows anything to help with your pain and shakes. I was talking to her about you fairly recently and she said she'd do some looking!
Yes, 15 is getting on for a lab. Hope she is good for a while yet. Just feed her all the right stuff and cut back on the chips and pop for her!

all best Craig,

Richard.

PS,
Not surprising a country the size of India has so many languages. When we went shooting to Egton Bridge in Yorkshire, only 18 miles from where we lived, I was clueless to understand what the locals were saying!

 

[Codger Craig Wilcox]

But English is English, right? LOL!

My Brazilian wife was an excellent mimic, and before my first trip to Brazil, she had told me about the different accents and expressions of various parts of Brazil. So we took a train ride down to the seashore through the mountains.

Couldn't understand WHAT they were saying, but COULD tell what part of Brazil they came from!

 

[toot]

Pukka, I believe that my carbine is what is called a Petronel? I may be wrong. it has been many years since that I have shot it, and back then I new what modal / name gun it was. was it common on them for the pan snapping out of the way of the match just before it hits the pan? after loading the pan the cover has to be slid back over the pan, and only goes forward at firing.

 

[rickystl]

Pukka, I believe that my carbine is what is called a Petronel? I may be wrong. it has been many years since that I have shot it, and back then I new what modal / name gun it was. was it common on them for the pan snapping out of the way of the match just before it hits the pan? after loading the pan the cover has to be slid back over the pan, and only goes forward at firing.

Toot: That sounds more like a snaphaunce lock.

Rick

 

[toot]

I hope that we can find out?

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Rick,
Somewhere in the last while our mate Rudyard mentioned the possibility of it being a Tippu Sultan matchlock.
There are others, but Tippu had some matchlocks made that had all sorts of ingenious little peculiarities!....including self opening pans.
I guess we must wait and see!

Toot,
If you can't load a picture, email it to one of us, and we can attach it.

 

[TobJohn]

Matchlock Caliver, Suhl appr. 1610

This replica, based on a Graz Armoury piece, is the only spring loaded pan cover matchlock I am aware of.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

I have photos somewhere , and know Rudyard has, of some of the arms of Tipu Sultan. He had a few matchlocks with with self-acting covers and other niceties, John.