Knife Ideas?

[Carteret Kid]

Look at Avalon Forge. For 12$ a very plain period trade knife, that takes an edge. Buy serveral and save shippng.

http://www.avalonforge.com/

See picture below.

 

[Carteret Kid]

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...he-knives-and-axes.155809/reply?quote=2212087

 

[Notchy Bob]

Thanks everyone. Is this a good place to buy from?

https://bernalcutlery.com/products/...10552&pr_ref_pid=5754194591896&pr_seq=uniform
Would a 6” blade be period correct? The handle on these Nowill butchers look to come unfinished. What would be a period correct wood finish for these? Thanks!

I’ve never ordered from Bernal Cutlery, but as much as I can tell, the website looks secure. They appear to take their own photos and write their own product descriptions, while the suspected scammers tend to use stock photos and standard, rote descriptions. I would have no concerns ordering from them. They have an interesting mix of old and new knives. A knife nut could spend a lot of time browsing around there…

Trade butcher knives were available in different blade lengths. I’m sure six inch blades were offered, but I can’t cite “chapter and verse” from memory if a reference is needed.

The handle on the Nowill butcher that I bought appears to be unfinished beech, which would be historically correct. The corners and edges of the handle on mine were pretty sharp, and you may want to “soften” those a little with fine sandpaper for comfort’s sake. @LRB gave good suggestions for a finish, and he would know. However, I have acquired a few antique butcher knives, and on the really old ones, the beech handles have taken on a light, dusty brown color. I haven’t done extensive testing, but I’ve tried a few different things and the best I’ve found for beech is walnut-tinted Danish oil. It is readily available, easy to use, and it gives beech a somewhat uneven light, dusty brown color. Not an exact match for the antique knives, but close enough for my purposes. Just dip the handle and let the knife hang for 30 minutes. Dip it again and let it hang for 15 minutes, and then rub it down with a rag until it feels dry. Rub a little more if you feel like it. The Danish oil is a linseed base and will not damage or color the steel tang or pins. It wipes right off the metal.

The topic of knife sheaths is pretty broad. You may get a lot of suggestions and opinions. If it were me, I would go with a very plain, simple, one-piece fold-over sheath of heavy rawhide, either laced up or riveted with copper harness rivets. Brass tacks would be appropriate, and we just recently had a pretty extensive discussion here on the forum concerning brass tacks and knife sheaths. You can probably find it quickly with a search so there’s no need to repeat it here. Some sheaths were notched to catch on the belt, some had thongs to suspend them from the belt, and some were simply shoved under the belt. Ruxton made one tantalizing reference to a knife sheath secured to a trapper’s belt with a link of trap chain "a large butcher knife in a sheath of buffalo-hide, made fast to the belt by a chain or guard of steel"* (Adventures in Mexico and the Rocky Mountains, p. 243). I’ve seen examples of native sheaths with belt loops on the back, but these tended to be decorated sheaths from later in the century.

If you keep it really simple, you can probably get fixed up with a sheath pretty quickly, with minimal investment, and start carrying that knife. If you want something more ornate, you can then take your time and get exactly what you want.

Have fun with this,

Notchy Bob

*Corrected 7-22-23

 

[Notchy Bob]

Smokey, I don't know if something like this would appeal to you or not:


The image is from the American Museum of Natural History digital collection, and it shows a Ho-Chunk sheath made of buffalo hide. It is of one-piece construction, folded and laced. If you look closely, you'll see slits cut for a belt, although a buckskin thong run through the slits appears to form a hanger loop.

Notchy Bob

 

[Red Owl]

A couple of nuances. The Nowill knife I posted- You can buy that direct from England using your American credit card and they'll adjust for the Euro. The price is about the same as the Russel, Green River knife. A stated, copper rivets are around 1880, the pins like the Nowill knife has are period correct. The other issue is the coil. On the Russel Green River knife the edge of the blade is a little father down from the tang. Knives like that started showing up around 1860. The period correct pattern is the blade edge and the bottom of the tang in a straight line.
Now: issues....
I emailed back and forth with the English outfit, My issues were:
1. The fur trade inventories don't list any Nowill knives
2. The Nowill currently being sold has a full tang but the knives at the time had half tangs.
The answers. At the time there were jobbers who obtained huge orders (H. Cutler was one). These orders were then subcontracted out to a variety of Sheffield Cutlers. All these cutlers had a collection of stamps with various names and they would stamp the knives they made with the stamp of the Jobber. Some jobbers also made knives. THEREFORE, you could have a listing in the fur trade inventories of 1,000 knives from Hiram Cutler but of that order, 300 were made by Nowill who stamped the blades they made with the Hiram Cutler mark. I never found any evidence of any particular order to that effect however this subcontracting practice was true. There were also outfits that only made blades and others that attached the handles. I know it is true that Nowill was in existence at the time so, their argument they made knives for the American fur trade is entire feasible.
2. The full tang. These were rare but did exist, so once again half tangs were 95% plus in existence but you cannot argue full tangs did not exist because they did.
So, all said and done, the Adams "Nowill" is about as accurate a choice as you'll get.
For anyone who really wants to get into the fine points, you'll see stamp marks of the same maker that are slightly different. One maker might have had several stamps or the "different" mark might have been from a jobber. It might be possible to track down an order with jobbers and somehow ID the "different" stamp as being from a particular subcontractor however I never could figure it out.
The Smithsonian had information on marks supplied from an "expert" source that was wrong. I told them and they blew me off as a know-nothing. I then got copies of death records, etc. from Sheffield and sent them proving that their "expert" was wrong and they actually changed their records. I don't know if I could repeat that today. At the time there was a spirit of cooperation and this woman in Sheffield had access to the original records (kept in a vault.) She was also a college professor and not driven by "making a buck" so she helped. She retired and the guy that replaced her didn't want to lift a finger. Sad.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Thanks, gang. Got in the Russell.

The handle was rough and largely unfinished so I sanded it smooth and put some linseed oil on it.

I’ll be getting the Nowill as this isn’t period of course, but I like it well enough in its own right. Neat knife and slices great.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

I also just ordered the Nowill. After handling the Russell and cutting it, I’m very impressed with this style of knife. Also have a sheath in the works thanks to Two Feathers!

 

[Red Owl]

And...we have to remember these knives were not intended for hand to hand fighting. They were for skinning elk, buffalo, and beaver and for that type of work the blunt tip was ideal.
On the Russell, it sort of gets into a fine line thing, use it to skin game, etc. and you can appreciate the design, nothing wrong with it, I'm sort of pushing the Nowill because it is a little more accurate.
On the Sheath, a rawhide thong to join the sides would represent one made in the wilds. On a tack sheath- just one line of about 8-10 tacks. Most folks take a leather thong and on one of the upper tacks, have the tack pierce the tong to hold it to the sheath. (The thong is then under the dome of the tack) The tong is wrapped around your belt so the sheath doesn't accidentally slip out and become lost.
I've made sheaths in both leather and rawhide. I thought rawhide would be more PC but I prefer the leather, it is resilient and holds the blade. The rawhide is like a piece of wood.
What is correct on a sheath? Probably several styles. If Harness shops in St. Louis were making sheaths, probably harness leather and copper harness rivets. Unfortunately, I never found any originals except one such claimed- pre-1840 that was laced up with a rawhide thong-a running stitch, not whipped stitched.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Two of these guys are showing us their sheaths:


The image is from A.J. MIller, "Hunting Elk Among the Black Hills." Blow the picture up and you see a line of dots along the outer edge of each sheath. Tacks? Rivets?

This painting by Karl Bodmer has been shown here on the forum numerous times, but we keep coming back to it because there is so much to see:


You can just see the throat of his sheath behind his back. It looks like it could be a rawhide sheath to me, laced with a double running stitch, judging from the two free ends of the lace that are showing. One thing we get from the two pictures (Miller and Bodmer) is that it must have been pretty common to wear the sheath behind the back, positioned with the cutting edge of the knife down and the knife handle accessible to the right hand.

This next sheath belonged to a Cheyenne man named Big Back, who was active in the Indian wars of the 1870's:


This is a bit late for @Smokey Plainsman 's period, but I don't think sheaths necessarily changed that much.

This Lakota sheath was dated to the 1860's. I think the "X" lacing is probably a later repair, as it is the only sheath I have seen laced that way, but who knows?:



One more rather plain rawhide sheath, undated, with an extension to catch on the wearer's belt, as on the shooter in the Miller illustration (above):



Based on the way the painted design is oriented, I think this one was probably made from a recycled parfleche.

There are lots of authentic options out there.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[LRB]

Two of these guys are showing us their sheaths:

View attachment 240136
The image is from A.J. MIller, "Hunting Elk Among the Black Hills." Blow the picture up and you see a line of dots along the outer edge of each sheath. Tacks? Rivets?

This painting by Karl Bodmer has been shown here on the forum numerous times, but we keep coming back to it because there is so much to see:

View attachment 240137
You can just see the throat of his sheath behind his back. It looks like it could be a rawhide sheath to me, laced with a double running stitch, judging from the two free ends of the lace that are showing. One thing we get from the two pictures (Miller and Bodmer) is that it must have been pretty common to wear the sheath behind the back, positioned with the cutting edge of the knife down and the knife handle accessible to the right hand.

This next sheath belonged to a Cheyenne man named Big Back, who was active in the Indian wars of the 1870's:

View attachment 240143
This is a bit late for @Smokey Plainsman 's period, but I don't think sheaths necessarily changed that much.

This Lakota sheath was dated to the 1860's. I think the "X" lacing is probably a later repair, as it is the only sheath I have seen laced that way, but who knows?:

View attachment 240146

One more rather plain rawhide sheath, undated, with an extension to catch on the wearer's belt, as on the shooter in the Miller illustration (above):

View attachment 240151

Based on the way the painted design is oriented, I think this one was probably made from a recycled parfleche.

There are lots of authentic options out there.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

I think the lacing is a replacement as X lacing and stitching may look cool but makes it vulnerable to wear and damage.

 

[Flint Striker]

Apologies for the shadows. I just got a couple Nowill knives from Bernal cutlery. The shipping was pretty fast and the knives were accurately described. I really like the 6” myself - has just a little bigger handle, about 3/32” thick blade at the spine, and an overall nice heft. The 5” is slightly thinner at the spine and honestly feels like a slightly heavier steak knife. Both are very sharp. They also have pretty cool Sheffield makers stamps. The bad is that the lowest pin on the 6” could be a little tighter, and both have slight waves/warps. If you have smaller hands or just want a lighter knife on your belt, the 5” is probably fine. Personally I like the feel of the 6” and the Green River a little better myself. I have ideas to tighten the 6” up and definitely plan to keep it. I’ll find a use for the 5” knife too.

 

[reddogge]

This has been my go-to camping knife since 1980. Handmade knife and sheath. I don't know how correct it is but it's been reliable and functional.

 

[Trigger]

Thanks, guys. I decided on this one:

View attachment 238516
It’s a 6” blade Russell Green River butcher. Has good reviews and should be about right for my needs.

Now I need a period correct leather sheath for the knife. I placed a wanted ad in the classifieds. Does anyone have any recommendations on what sheaths would have been used in the mountain man/fur trade era? Thanks!

Dexter Russell? There nice knifes.

Also good knifes.. Ontario knife company "old hickory". Used the boning knife for deer. Takes a little bit to get a good edge on them but nice.

You can pick up any of there knifes. Cheap. Like the large butcher for example. And you can use it to ree handle and make whatever.

Victorinox. Dexter. Ontario knife. All good blades..

For fancy hunting. I like the Puma.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

Look at Avalon Forge. For 12$ a very plain period trade knife, that takes an edge. Buy several and save shipping.

Dang nice stuff on that site.
The kitchen knife is super nice. Might get one for the kitchen, I already have the finest knives for rondy. I was going to post them, but the are all sold out and are NLA.

The top pocket knife is the same as the British warrant one I had 30 years ago.

 

[Carteret Kid]

Dang nice stuff on that site.
The kitchen knife is super nice. Might get one for the kitchen, I already have the finest knives for rondy. I was going to post them, but the are all sold out and are NLA.

The top pocket knife is the same as the British warrant one I had 30 years ago.

That 18th century trade knife is quite interesting. The English figurered out how to make them in vast numbers and then ship them in mass all over the world. They could sell them for around ten bucks each for a small profit. They understood that every house, hovel and wigwam on Earth need a serviceable steel knife.
It was called a Butcher's knife but marketed in the fur trade as a "Scalping knife", It was probably the most common knife in Colonial America.

 

[user 36911]

I use the Green River Hunter as my knife. Use it for cutting patches at the muzzle and all skinning and butchering. Plus, anything else that comes up Just the right size for me and holds a good edge for a long time.

https://www.dexterrussellcutlery.com/4215-dexter-green-river-hunting-fish-knife/

 

[Notchy Bob]

I bought one of the Avalon Forge knives some years ago. Maybe they have improved in the interim, but mine has a stainless blade and a hexagonal handle of some Asian mystery wood dipped in red paint. In form and outline, it is a pretty good representation of an old-time scalping knife, but it is a very cheap knife, very cheaply made of the wrong materials. You get what you pay for. Pay twice that much for a 6" John Nowill butcher and you'll have a more authentic knife of much better quality.

I have both and speak from experience with them. However, as always, your experience may be different.

Respectufully,

Notchy Bob

 

[oldwood]

Crazy Crow Catalog on line. Knives.

 

[Notchy Bob]

With apologies to those who have issues with reviving old threads, I ran across a sketch that I thought might be of interest. This is a drawing by Rudolph Friedrich Kurz (1818-1871), who came to America in 1846 and worked at Fort Union on the Upper Missouri in 1851-1852. This image shows one of the engagés (laborers) at Fort Union:


You can get a pretty good look at the sheath dangling from his right hip, as well as the knife handle. The sheath appears to have a belt loop, but I'm not sure the gentleman is wearing a belt. He elected to let the sheath dangle from his waist by a thong. It looks like a very simple rawhide sheath, maybe not identical to this one, but likely pretty similar, even down to the buckskin suspension thong strung through a hole in the upper corner:



That does look like an awkward way to carry a sheath knife, though, flopping against his knee like that. It would drive me crazy. However, Kurz drew from life, and that is evidently what he saw.

By enlarging the image of the workman, you can also get a pretty good look at the knife handle. I don't want to jump to any conclusions, but it appears to have a full tang and scale handle, and the visible pins suggest a pin pattern similar to the John Nowill butcher knife shown in posts above.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob