Kibler vs. TVM.

[Joemolf]

It's been about 6-8 years ago, but I am 99% certain that my TVM Lancaster kit was band saw cut for the butt plate but I had to do the "smoking" of the plate and inletting process. Having done a fowler and a steel southern plate the lancaster brass was the easiest, my Chambers PA fowler was more inlet than the TVM but there are very different plates.

Any TVM built rifle should hold a decent value still. They are well known and have a pretty good reputation. $2500 seems high . . . unless it is really fine figured wood. . . others here may have a better view of value than I do.

Matt Advance has several builders in his shop, but they seem to put out quality rifles. However, I think he cuts his stocks via a band saw - there's a youtube video of it. Hershell House does the same thing, and it is quite a skill, but I prefer a machine cut pre-carve like Chambers, Pecatonica or Track of the Wolf. . . TVM rifles tend to all look similar to me in their styles and perhaps the bandsaw is why, I don't know.

I am left handed so TVM was my best choice for a .32 flinter, which is what I wanted.

Yes it is a skill it was perfectly fit! Unfortunately that stock had a ton of moisture in it. It didn’t like its transition from Mississippi to New York and then to New Hampshire. Though of all my many flintlocks it was only the two TVM that showed a good amount of shrinkage. Unfortunately for this one the butt cracked. The other i sent out to have redone that is a keeper only because I spent more than I paid for it originally to have it completely redone with relief carvings and engraving. The most important thing was getting that engraving off the barrel. Unfortunately the Master i had redo it would not put his name on because it started out someone’s else’s work. Doesn’t matter that one is not going anywhere.

 

[Joemolf]

Considering that folks are ordering TVM guns every day with a known year plus wait to get a new one delivered, ask close to the $2500 you paid and see what happens. Someone will be happy not having to wait for one to be made, with a crapshoot on the quality, maybe better, maybe worse than what you have. At least many of the issues are already documented on the sample you will offer.

You know you are very right! Even with these issues they don’t affect the performance. I started building a Lancaster rifle a few months ago. I had no idea of what I was getting into. I’m not a gun builder but I figured I could do most of it. Without the help of Bill Raby’s videos and input from guys on this forum I would have given up a long time ago. Regardless of the help it opened my eyes to the time it takes to get one of these together. Time is money and it takes a lot of time. Even the rifle here they spent a bunch of time on it. With all its cosmetic issues I feel it was still worth the 2400 I paid for it. I will sell it for less because the stock was repaired. But even with that it now will last a long time and be a lot of fun.
Thanks Again!
Cheers
Joe

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

I had to install the lock to keep the bit down. Obviously and not uncommon bits walk and can go in all different directions. Using the forward screw as the bit hold down. But it turns out well and now the ramryis no longer in the way of loading. That was annoying! LOL

I don't know this for sure, but I've heard TVM farms out some of their work. I have repaired their errors in the past. One just a few months ago for a member of this forum. Things that should not be let out the door by a professional builder such as TVM. Semper Fi.

 

[Joemolf]

I don't know this for sure, but I've heard TVM farms out some of their work. I have repaired their errors in the past. One just a few months ago for a member of this forum. Things that should not be let out the door by a professional builder such as TVM. Semper Fi.

Yes! Thank you for agreeing. I had heard that as well and I am fine with them having others build for them. I would not consider some of the issues shoddy just unfortunate because after all they got it altogether and it shoots well. However the end result should dictate the price and in my case I don’t believe it does. Parting lines are a big no no. I was not that aware or savvy when I purchased them. But a bunch of good rifles later and posts on this forum now I know. So buyers be ware. I bought a few rifles from TOTW even though I may have paid premium for them every one I purchased from them is in fact premium. I can live with some of the hiccups but the hiccup that bothers me the most was the shrinking. I realize it’s probably hard for many to realize how badly my stock shrunk. Mind you both the SMR and the Virginia I purchased from them. Again all my rifles were stored in the same closet. Only the two TVM stocks shrunk where it was obvious. Being they are in Mississippi I think they need to pay close attention to moisture content. I think you would be better off starting with a dryer stock thrown in a oven to minimize moisture content then one taken off the shelf.

 

[Scota@4570]

It sounds like they are storing stocks in a non air conditioned space.

 

[Blitz]

I hate to say it … but if you look around, there are some TVM’s that are fantastic (Had one, but sold it, a lefty one too!) and then there are some out there (just recently within the last 2-months and up to a few years ago) that are soooooo bad that the Buyer’s either have to send them back, or EAT IT AND ACCEPT THE POOR BUILD ISSUES, or possibly PAY to have someone else fix their mistakes.

The only way I can interpret it, is that TVM has gotten ‘so big or busy’ that they have other builders - sub-contractors - now making some contract guns for them. So all the guns go out with ‘M. Avance’ marked on the barrel, but Matt himself may not personally see the gun before it is sent on to the customer!

In my opinion, that is just wrong!

What I would advise you to do, is determine what school or model of longrifle do YOU like the best? You really can’t compare the 3 Kibler longrifles as being the same … you have an early Colonial (wide butt, but heavier early rifle), or the shorter and trimmer Woodsrunner one (that weighs less [but to me I HATE the shape of the ‘rounded’ comb on the butt stock, ‘butt ugly’ to me!!!!]), to their Southern Mountain Rifle, which is a different rifle altogether, never mind made in smaller calibers.

With an 18-month wait, and questionable receipt of the said gun, and there’s no way I could tell you to go with the TVM over a Kibler!

What I would advise you is, what do YOU want it for? Hunting or target? If hunting, I personally would go with the 54 or 58. Then look at either the Colonial or the Woodsrunner and see which stock shape YOU like.

Hate is a terrible thing and directed toward an inanimate object is a questionable emotion. not to say that dislike or preference to certain features is totaly objectionable. but as in all things it is best circumscribe our desires and keep emotions in check. We do of course all have preferences and that is usually a good thing normally , not to be obsessive .
I will offer my opinion on the buttstock styling in the affirmative. It appears to my eye to resemble styling of some modern German rifle buttstocks . When first encountered some 50 years or more ago it of course looked foriegn, different and took a few years to appreciate.
nothing is ststic in this world or life we and everything is in constant change. I know that I now hold views quite different than 40,50 60 years ago and that is probably a good thing
How boring it would be if we all liked the same thing and could not appreciate some differences.
But as has been said beauty is in the eye of the beholder,
Blitz

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

I hate to say it … but if you look around, there are some TVM’s that are fantastic (Had one, but sold it, a lefty one too!) and then there are some out there (just recently within the last 2-months and up to a few years ago) that are soooooo bad that the Buyer’s either have to send them back, or EAT IT AND ACCEPT THE POOR BUILD ISSUES, or possibly PAY to have someone else fix their mistakes.

The only way I can interpret it, is that TVM has gotten ‘so big or busy’ that they have other builders - sub-contractors - now making some contract guns for them. So all the guns go out with ‘M. Avance’ marked on the barrel, but Matt himself may not personally see the gun before it is sent on to the customer!

In my opinion, that is just wrong!

What I would advise you to do, is determine what school or model of longrifle do YOU like the best? You really can’t compare the 3 Kibler longrifles as being the same … you have an early Colonial (wide butt, but heavier early rifle), or the shorter and trimmer Woodsrunner one (that weighs less [but to me I HATE the shape of the ‘rounded’ comb on the butt stock, ‘butt ugly’ to me!!!!]), to their Southern Mountain Rifle, which is a different rifle altogether, never mind made in smaller calibers.

With an 18-month wait, and questionable receipt of the said gun, and there’s no way I could tell you to go with the TVM over a Kibler!

What I would advise you is, what do YOU want it for? Hunting or target? If hunting, I personally would go with the 54 or 58. Then look at either the Colonial or the Woodsrunner and see which stock shape YOU like.

You are correct about the before and after of the TVM,s. Years ago I never saw a TVM in my shop. Now-a-days, I've repaired a few. One wasn't even functioning when the buyer received it. There's no way it was tested for function at the TVM shop. I don't think I'd go with a TVM today. Their quality is not what it used to be. Semper Fi.

 

[mikesto44]

Seems to me that the bigger a company gets. That's when the quality starts to suffer. Seen it way to many times..! JMHO

 

[springfield art]

It's well known that TVM has various people working on the guns; may even be specialists, that work on a particular part. Kiblers are a known quantity, very standardized, almost like Henry Ford in the early days!

 

[bassncrap]

Fellow club member has both the Woodsrunner and SMR. Ive handled them both but haven't shot them.

Kibler gets my vote!!!!!

 

[jdw276]

Machine made vs hand made. Is there really a comparison? Production vs indiividually made. No comparison. To each their own. Machine made wait time 3 months, hand made 2 years. Comparable? Do what you think you need to do.....

 

[Grenadier1758]

The Kibler rifle parts are formed on CNC machinery. So, these are for all practical purposes machine made. Judging from the reviews, these are excellent rifles that require very little hand work to build a fine, functioning rifle. So, in the case of a Kibler rifle, machine made is a top choice.

 

[mikesto44]

Whether it is machine made or hand made. The quality of the product depends on how much the company or the individual takes pride in what their turning out for their customers.
Jim Kibler goes far beyond what a lot of companies do..! In the 50+ years I've been into this sport. Kibler is at the top of the heap in quality production kit guns.. JM2C

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

For the kits that I've done I'll stand by the Kibler's. However, I am currently doing an SMR for a small game rifle that proves they aren't all Lego perfect snap together parts sets. Granted I bought it as a B grade but, the only defect listed was undesirable staining in the wood.
What they failed to mention was the inletting for the butt plate has several issues. All 4 of the screw holes are not only off center, they are off axis. A fairly good size chip out of the shelf for the top of the butt plate. Lastly, it's been bumped and the sharp corner at the top was badly blunted and crooked.
All things to be dealt with when doing kits. Only aggravation is I'll have to change my finishing plans so I can make a filler out of the sanding fines to deal with that chip so it's not so noticeable.

 

[FlinterNick]

Based on the value and quality Jim Kibler offers, I was all set to get a Woodsrunner even though I prefer a barrel longer than 39". All the reviews and videos of building of a Kibler is proof enough they are likely the best deal for an historically correct and gorgeous rifle. I am not at all handy. I mean NOT AT ALL. So I was going to get an "in the white" kit.
Then I happened to see that TVM will make a gun for me completely finished with Siler lock and name brand barrel, custom length and swamped, choice of hardware. Basic Southern has 36 or 42" barrel. The 42 is more aesthetically pleasing at least to me, but 44 would be even prettier, which they offer at extra cost. Choice of wood. Just comparing their basic Southern plain maple or walnut or late PA with Jimr's Woodsrunner or Colonial, a finished TVM rifle is just a tad more money with more possibility to upgrade.
What would you do? Take a look at Tenn Valley Mfg if you haven't seen them. U had one many years agi in .36. The Poor Boy model, no entry thimble, very plain wood, no toe plate. But looked good because of the longer barrel.
All I have now is a Pedersoli GPR flinter. It is so very heavy and doesn't have the graceful lines of a longrifle.

TVM quality has gone down recently.

I had kit they wanted to send to me to build a year ago, i advised the owner to send it back.

Sent over pictures of the sock and a video of the breech plug which could turn in a little too easily.

Rammer hole was drilled about 2” short and off center. Wrist had a splice of bark in it.

Breech on barrel coarse threaded with the breech being fine threaded, dumb and dangerous mistake or it’s possible the wrong breech plug was sent with the kit.

Kibler kits are far easier to assemble and far better quality, who could argue between the two.

I would say if you want a challenge kit, go for a chambers kit, you can complete a chambers kit with high detail or less.

Dont forget about Larry Zornes, Larry makes some of the highest quality kits

 

[Nav]

I have a bunch of old Colt Snake Guns from my Dad. They really are hand made works of art, and out of the box, IMHO, the most buttery smooth double actions ever (the smoothest I’ve ever squeezed was a S&W that had “work” done to it).

It used to be that the only way to get metal into the 1 thou range was to undermll and then stone and hand polish to super high tolerances. For their day that’s why the Colts were so much more expensive. Today they'd probably be 20k, but today you can CNC to one thou. QED. The CNC machine also doesn’t get drunk, not show up for work, have an attitude, etc.

 

[nuttbush]

I have a Kibler SMR and I have a TVM Southern rifle. I think with the advance in technology that Mr. Kiblers guns for the price are remarkable.
This is just my opinion, but with the locks and stocks that are CNC machined you can't get a better fit. I have built a TOTW SMR and I can tell
you that was an experience. The Kiblers are so much easier. My opinion is like the man said, get a Kibler and enjoy.

 

[Tn poor boy]

Iv had tvm it took a year to get it!!!!!!! Iv bulit 6 of Jim's kibler kits you get them in about 2 weeks may be 3 weeks

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Seems for the many comments on here that People are satisfied with what Kibler produces.

 

[Nav]

IMHO you get the quality of a hand fitted rifle, built by a master, in a kit you can assemble and finish yourself.