Kibler side effect?

[Snooterpup]

They go together pretty much as easy as the kits you named, and the lock is the best on the market at the time. I know, I've built with all of them.

Waksupi and TDM are correct.
I’ve run the gamut of flintlocks from being a sixteen year old kid to now at 69 years with three fine flintlocks. Many, many have passed through my hands over the years. I have not built from a plank but have assembled many kits, some good, some bad and all needed lock attention save only one and that one is Jim’s.
Repaired and rebuilt other flintlocks that were poorly made or assembled. Have had experience with many locks and lock manufacturers. Good Silers to mediocre Silers, the same with Pedersoli and other no names from the 60’s and 70’s.
My experience is that Kibler’s round faced Colonial lock is the finest most reliable production lock on the market with Chambers being about equal (depends on who built it).
My latest flintlock (about three years now) is a Kibler Colonial in .54. Nothing that I have ever owned or worked on in the past can compare with that lock.
While many flintlocks will function, they are the timex watches, while Kibler’s are Swiss precision. Reliability comes from thoughtful design, correct materials, hardening and proper shaping polishing and fitting of the parts and assembly.

My takeaway is that you can buy and use a lesser flintlock but frustration and disappointment will surely follow. There is a place in your heart for your first car but I am certain what you drive now is far better and far more reliable.

If you want performance, reliability, historical accuracy and top quality American parts and American ingenuity get a Kibler. You will not regret that decision.

 

[French Colonial]

Some really took offense to the "Blank canvas" concept it appears....

Even with a blank canvas there are only so many things you can do with it, a lot depends on the size of the canvas and the skill of the artist.

 

[rich pierce]

No offense, just different view of what a blank canvas is. Yes, one could carve or add inlays or wire or add a patchbox of a different style to a Kibler kit and customize it like one might do a bunch of things to trick out a 68 Camaro. In the end the Camaro is still a Camaro, which is great.

If I start with a barrel inletted into a blank, that’s a “blank” canvas. See what I did there? But even that is restricted depending on the barrel and wood. A 31” swamped .54 barrel won’t make an English Fowler or a Bedford rifle. This is where the knowledge and creativity and design come into play when building from a blank. And for some, that’s what makes building a gun fun. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[stikshooter]

Your comparing oranges to apples and to grapes. Especially since you say that you have no experience with a Kibler kit. The Kibler locks set the bar for performance, Chambers is still a quality lock and desirable, L&R lost their way quite a while ago and isn’t a valid comparison to a Kibler lock. Hopefully you’ll get a chance to handle and shoot one of the Kibler models, you might decide they’re not too bad.

Could not have said better , pointing out the obvious ! Like critiquing the menu but haven't ever eaten there . Like in a previous post ,another example of folks talking and not knowing and then wonder why the ranks of BP shooters are dwindling /Edf

 

[Reno]

I enjoy looking at the Kibler Kits. They look fantastic. Now that I’m retired it’s a larger mountain to climb to afford one. Over the years I have put several muzzleloaders together using components. Mostly Pecatonica and Track of the Wolf.
I will say that I am fortunate to have had to fit these together. In Doing so you gain a knowledge of how they all come together.
That is great knowledge to have. Knowing what wood to remove and what not to remove.
I do look forward to getting a Kibler just to see for myself the differences.
I think he has done a lot for muzzleloading. Many do not have the patience today to do the fitting.

 

[Siringo]

1st off let me state that I don't own a Kibler but I've read a lot of threads on how user friendly they are to assemble and finish.
Is it possible that with the popularity of the Kibler kits, that other kit makers will be inspired to follow suit with their kits to make them more user friendly for those less mechanically or skillfully inclined?
I've built several so called "kits" from other makers and they required a lot and I mean a lot of hours and hand work, where as the Kiblers sound so much easier.

Most of these companies in the muzzleloading/accessories business are owned by older folks, who started these businesses decades ago. I seriously doubt they are willing to invest heavily to expand their businesses at that stage in life.

 

[James Kibler]

Read this thread twice and I'm actually shaking my head. At the comments where you guys write like Pedersoli could learn how to do CNC work from Kibler.
Now that's funny!

How many manufacturers do you all think that take up an entire city block with automated equipment and machinery?!
Do you think Kibler's quality would be where it's at today if he were turning out 500 kits per week?
Some years ago I toured the Gunlock furniture in Wayland New York.
You ain't seen wood carving by machines until you toured a big factory.
Some of you guys better go over on YouTube and look up CNC machining stocks & actions, ECT.

I've seen a Pedersolli factory tour on Youtube and I couldn't believe their methods. Many of the processes seemed very archaic at best, and their equipment is dated. I don't know what their production is, but I do know that what they do make isn't worth much in my view. Just being honest... I wouldn't consider them any sort of an expert (CNC, stock making etc. etc.). None of their flintlock rifles even come close to looking like a proper longrifle. I'm sure no one in the company understands what a longrifle should be and further they take shortcuts all over to save time and effort.

After watching the video I was literally astonished and not in a good way...

Not trying to bash them, but just sharing my thoughts since this was brought up. Hopefully nothing wrong with honesty.

 

[James Kibler]

As to the original question of whether others will begin to use more modern processes and equipment in kit production, I expect it will happen in time. How long, I don't know. I do know that it's not easy and takes a person with unique skills. Further, the cost of equipment is staggering. We just got a new machine set-up and the price tag was around 500K. But good equipment more than pays for itself even at these costs.

I'm really proud of how far we've come in 8 years. We've turned into a company that is very successful in many of the ways professionals would evaluate a business. We have a team of skilled employees that I can't say enough about. We've just recently begun providing health insurance. In short we're far from the typical Mom and Pop outfit that is typical in the muzzleloading world.

I lose track and forget about all the effort and work it has taken to get where we are, though. It's more than most would understand or imagine.

Looking back, It's hard to imagine too many having what it takes and the desire to choose this path. But, you never know...

 

[rmefbowhunter]

I agree that “Kibler Longrifles is the best thing to hit the traditional muzzleloading industry in decades.”
As far as the future, none of us know when or if things happen that alters the present. As I keep saying to my wife if you see something or enjoy something like a great cookie, pizza or flintlock,”Get ‘em while you can”.

Thanks for this. I have just added Rationalization #274 (above) to my long list of justifications for acquisition of additional toys.

 

[azmntman]

This is my opinion solely. I am willing to wager that Pedersoli has an eye on Jim's operation for a couple of reasons. The first, it would reduce the manual labor required for their finished products. Reduced labor costs = increased profits. Secondly, it would reduce the complexity of their kit builds to increase sales versus, say Traditions or InvestArms.

Pedersoli has the technological prowess and engineers that could duplicate this in short order once the cooperate decision is made. As with anything, the hardest part is having the original idea. If you know that something has been done, the human mind will more easily duplicate it.

I would buy from Jim over Pedersoli all day long and for a bit more as Jim is an AMERICAN CO. Agree with all other areas of the post.

 

[#blackpowderbill]

Pedersoli didn't start out to make SMR.
The video is 10 years old.
Anyone can go to YouTube and look at CNC stock and firearm making.
Jim, you're one of thousands that uses a CNC process to make stocks and parts.
Now you may be one of the few in the United States that's turning out an automated machined"long rifles".
BP Shooters win international matches with Pedersoli rifles.
80% of the BP rifles than end up on my bench with issues are owner related.

 

[James Kibler]

Pedersoli didn't start out to make SMR.
The video is 10 years old.
Anyone can go to YouTube and look at CNC stock and firearm making.
Jim, you're one of thousands that uses a CNC process to make stocks and parts.
Now you may be one of the few in the United States that's turning out an automated machined"long rifles".
BP Shooters win international matches with Pedersoli rifles.
80% of the BP rifles than end up on my bench with issues are owner related.

Bill,

Why would I want to argue with someone who obviously doesn't really know what they are talking about? Why would you want to argue with me given my background. Arrogance? For Real? Who are you? One of thousands who use CNC to make MUZZLELOADING stocks? Are you ridiculous. Making a short stock is a breeze compared to a longrifle. If you think a Pedersoli even remotely compares to our products it just shows your lack of knowledge. You think they completely re-tooled since there video? I would bet it's all virtually the same. You must not know much about manufacuring to think they could make a product like ours with only the desire, you must not understand and appreciate how bad their products and processes are. All I can do is shake my head.

 

[wiscoaster]

Now, Jim, just take a deep breath and

as one person's post is of no account, so please chill, and keep on doing exactly as you're doing at Kibler's Longrifles. No need to waste your time defending yourself here. Anybody who's bought any one of your products will happily take up your cause.

 

[James Kibler]

Yes, I think I should avoid forums such as this otherwise my head may just end up exploding.

 

[painter]

Yes, I think I should avoid forums such as this otherwise my head may just end up exploding.

Please don't leave. There's one in every crowd. Just put him on ignore.

 

[Snooterpup]

Bill,

Why would I want to argue with someone who obviously doesn't really know what they are talking about? Why would you want to argue with me given my background. Arrogance? For Real? Who are you? One of thousands who use CNC to make MUZZLELOADING stocks? Are you ridiculous. Making a short stock is a breeze compared to a longrifle. If you think a Pedersoli even remotely compares to our products it just shows your lack of knowledge. You think they completely re-tooled since there video? I would bet it's all virtually the same. You must not know much about manufacuring to think they could make a product like ours with only the desire, you must not understand and appreciate how bad their products and processes are. All I can do is shake my head.

Jim, don’t let ‘em bring you down. As my Grandfather said more than once:
“It amazes me that there are so many more horse’s a__es than horses in this world!”

 

[Snooterpup]

Pedersoli didn't start out to make SMR.
The video is 10 years old.
Anyone can go to YouTube and look at CNC stock and firearm making.
Jim, you're one of thousands that uses a CNC process to make stocks and parts.
Now you may be one of the few in the United States that's turning out an automated machined"long rifles".
BP Shooters win international matches with Pedersoli rifles.
80% of the BP rifles than end up on my bench with issues are owner related.

Really??? Seriously???

 

[springfield art]

I'm licking my chops waiting for the day Jim announces a PISTOL! I think I read he's working on a Hawkin, too. But researching to find out just which type of Hawken to make. His skill in using modern CNC science to make high-quality "old fashioned" goods is amazing. But you'll never see a TV segment on him as an American entrepreneur, because he makes "GUNS"!! The mainstream press will only cover "correct" craftsmen. Jim is a modern-day genius.

 

[French Colonial]

I have considered buying a Pedersoli Jaeger before, just something to play with instead of taking my custom Jaeger in to the woods.
Luckily I drove down to Dixie Gun Works and handled one before spending the money because I would have been very disappointed at that price (around $1,600.00 last time I looked).

I have two Kibler's now a SMR and a Woodsrunner (I already have a custom similar to his colonial).

Saying a Pedersoli is comparable to a Kibler is laughable, Pedersoli is like handling a club next to a Kibler.

 

[bpd303]

Hopefully nothing wrong with honesty.

Always the best policy and I for one applaud you for that.