Italian companies

[Zip]

Does anyone know why there sometimes seem to be so many Italian companies making nice replica muzzleloaders, six shooters, Sharps, Rolling Blocks and Highwalls, etc. and, yet, too many American companies turning out "Black Rifles" and long-range wanna-be sniper guns to shoot deer a half-mile away? Is it shooting, hunting and gun ownership regulations in Europe or the popularity of "spaghetti westerns" or what? Just wondering why firms like Remington, Savage, Marlin, Mossberg and others aren't interested in expanding their bottom line. I'm not feeling loved. sniffle, sniffle.

 

Very good question!

 

[luieb45]

The italian companies are selling there guns to Americans because American gun companies can't make a gun that's affordable for us.

 

[east texas]

im pretty sure these companies have considerd it , but somewhere down the line, was advised that the cost of tooling and start-up would not be cost effective for the small following that would purchase said items!

 

[nkbj]

It is a function of manufacturing costs coupled with the strength of the US$.
As regards manufacturing costs, look at the changes in 1800's firearms design wrought by changes in manufacturing methods used to reduce costs. To make a reproduction of a device created using antiquated methods you are stuck with a more complicated process and therefore more costs.

 

[D Sanders]

yet, too many American companies turning out "Black Rifles" and long-range wanna-be sniper guns to shoot deer a half-mile away? Is it shooting, hunting and gun ownership regulations in Europe or the popularity of "spaghetti westerns" or what? Just wondering why firms like Remington, Savage, Marlin, Mossberg and others aren't interested in expanding their bottom line. I'm not feeling loved. sniffle, sniffle.

Good reed!!! This may explain some things. http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/225581/

HH 60

 

[CoyoteJoe]

"Just wondering why firms like Remington, Savage, Marlin, Mossberg and others aren't interested in expanding their bottom line."
All of those companies along with Winchester and Ruger have offered muzzleloaders,--- inlines.
In traditional muzzleloaders over the past 50 years there have been lots of companies started up and gone bust. Only T/C has offered a sort of traditional, American made muzzleloader and they have reduced their offerings to just one model in just one caliber and it's priced out of reason these days and I doubt T/C will continue with it much longer. Even the importers are loosing interest as seen when CVA dropped their last sidelocks.
It's like all the other "why don't they make?" questions that come up in the gun forums. If they believed the money was there they'd go after it but clearly the money just isn't there.
So we should be glad we have makers like TVM which cater to the niche market and be glad we have the Italian imports. Be glad we have online traders like on this site and like Track of the Wolf. Don't get your hopes up that any big name gun maker will ever tool up to produce a flint fowler. :shake:

 

[BadHorse]

Just wondering why firms like Remington, Savage, Marlin, Mossberg and others aren't interested in expanding their bottom line.

well i have an Ithaca Hawken (the shotgun people) that was made in 1978, they made these one year only a bailed out. back then the rifle was $480. that was serious cash back then. the sales sucked, so Ithaca sold all the parts, tooling and such to navy arms who bult them for a few years and navy arms sold out to pedersoli who now makes the gun

 

[mazo kid]

The italian companies are selling there guns to Americans because American gun companies can't make a gun that's affordable for us.

That's probably one good reason. Remington did produce a replica flint lock rifle several years ago and, IIRC, it was priced at about $1800. That was about twice the price of a decent Italian repro at the time.

 

[hanshi]

I truly believe our niche is forever relegated to custom builders and European imports. It's not really that bad as long as we (as a group) continue to encourage those who would buy/use a sidelock and not scold them because it is not PC/HC. Bring them into the fold, first, and then break them to saddle later.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

im pretty sure these companies have considerd it , but somewhere down the line, was advised that the cost of tooling and start-up would not be cost effective for the small following that would purchase said items!

This is the one here.

As a left handed shooter, if I want to build anything for myself with anything other than a Germanic lock I have to go with L&R.

On another forum abunch of us lefties ganged up on Jim Chambers about him not supplying the left hand community with quality (read that as Ketland) English locks, the response was to basically purchase something like 500 or 1000 units in advance just to cover tooling costs.

That pretty well ended the uprising right there.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I represent a manufacturer of gun stocks who supplies many of the stocks for American Companies. I therefore have a bit of "insider" information about WHY we don't see our guns being made here in America.

Its the cost of Insurance, and our Products Liability Laws that expose manufacturers to hefty lawsuits when someone is injured misusing an old style gun of any kind. Guns manufactured outside of this Country are not subject to our Products Liability Laws. Guns made here are.

So, if a company wants to make a replica of a gun made in this country before we had mechanical safeties, for instance, it can be sued successfully for marketing a "defective" product, while an exact copy of that same gun, made in Italy, but imported and sold here, will not create such a lawsuit.

Colt can make new versions of its "Peacemaker", without required safeties, because its simply building new copies of its old gun. Ruger, however, redesigned the SA revolver, using coil springs, etc. and the company did not exist back in the 19th century, so people who shoot themselves with a Single Action Ruger revolver get to sue that company.

Change the model designation, or market as a new, "Improved' version, and you better make it user SAFE, stamp warnings all over the barrel and action, and print long warnings in the factory BOOKLET that now is included in the box with every gun sold.

The cost of building guns is not as big an issue now, with CNC equipment, that it once was. Problems with high benefit packages to unions have caused problems, however, and many of the older companies have either closed their doors, or moved to "Right to Work" states. Several companies have left Connecticut for that reason, for example. MY client has a profit-sharing plan with his employees, and they don't want any part of a Union. His use of CNC equipment, and now Robots, to do much of the work, has reduced his cost of production so that he is taking business back away from many other countries, from both Europe and Asia. Even with the difference in pay scales, he is able to beat them on their costs. :hmm:

 

[east texas]

wise words with some thought behind them! :applause: :applause:

 

[dcriner]

I'm wondering if some Italian replica manufacturers have a market in Europe as well as the U.S. I recently purchased a Davide P. persussion pistol. The instruction manual was in all the usual European languages (including English, of course). And, the warranty card was adressed their Italy address.

The pistol works fine, by the way.
Doug

 

[ebiggs1]

Savage Arms did a cost study on reviving the Savage 99 in 300 Savage, fantastic gun! :thumbsup:
They found it cost prohibitive (There is a blurb about it in The American Rifleman magazine). So there is more than just insurance and liability involved.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

:thumbsup:

 

[redwing]

Both Remington and Browning made black powder replicas. Browning made the John Browing Mtn Rifle in the U.S. This was an over priced not so good product. These were sold off real cheap. They are now collectors guns. Remington offered a Long Rifle for a time. It failed, it was over priced not so good product.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The problem that Savage found with the Model 99, is that it originally was designed with too many parts, all of which have to fit precisely. This was done when labor was cheap, and the company could afford to Hand Fit parts by Master Gunsmiths. They can't produce the Model 99 with the same parts, but they could redesign it, and bring out an upgraded version of this classic rifle.

Winchester/ USRA did this with the Model 94 lever action carbine and rifle. But, if you know anything about the Model 94, there were changes in its internal parts all through the years it was produced. The same happened with other models of guns during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, as machinery improved in quality and accuracy.

I can tell you that a lot of gun manufacturers have sent management officials to see my client's business and tour the floor of his plant to see how he uses the modern equipment. Slowly, the gun industry is upgrading its equipment, and producing better products. There may even be some hope for better managers, too. My client created his business on his kitchen table, then moved it to his garage, and only later found a separate building to begin his business. He bought a huge building that had been empty for a number of years- probably at a bargain price--- that used to house a bowling alley and dance floor and bar. He has now used up all the original space, and has added at least two additions to the building that I know about.

 

[Zonie]

The Italian and the Spanish makers both market their guns in Europe and Great Britain.

They offer some rather nice guns on these markets that are not imported into the USA.

Go online and check out a few of them.

 

[mtmshieldshotmail.com]

Just wondering why firms like Remington, Savage, Marlin, Mossberg and others aren't interested in expanding their bottom line. sniffle, sniffle.

It's all about the bottom line. That's what keeps companies and shareholders happy. When they forget about the bottom line, they get "bailed out" with taxpayer dollars (unless they're gun companies, 'cause guns are BAD).
Regards,
Mike