Inexpensive flintlocks...

[nc_cooter]

I am a newbie here and I want to say that in my short time being a member of this forum, I have learned a lot. I also respect ALL opinions expressed here. That being said, I don't have to agree with all of those opinions. It is my job to learn and decide what to keep and use. Will I make mistakes? Yes. Will I blame others? NO!
When I was a newbie knifemaker, I decided to build my propane gas fired forge. I read all the info I could find on propane forges. I picked a bit info from here and there and built my forge. The burners were the toughest part. I decided on ventury burner design.
It was a great shock to me when I posted pictures on the knife forum. I was told point blank that I could not operate a ventury forge at 2psig propane pressure and get a stable flame. There are now a lot of ventury burners operating safely at that pressure. Did I discover something brand new? NO! I put ideas from 3 experts together and ended up with a good burner.
Bottom line is we need all opinions here. Everyone needs to stay and continue to let their voice be heard. :v :hatsoff: :thumbsup:
Mike

 

[ebiggs1]

Mr. Brooks said,
“Now tg, I'm trying to stay out of this.
I have a new motto: "Buy the cheapest manure you can find"
And no Mr. Biggs, my guns don't need "tweaked". You'll have to sight them in, but they work exceptionally well when you receive them, and that's mainly due to the best barrels and locks on the market and 30 years of building experience.”

Since this looked to be directed toward me, but even if it wasn’t, how am I, or whomever, is supposed to take it?
My guns means as much to me as your fanciest custom gun does. I may not be able to afford the “best” but it ain’t manure.

 

[ebiggs1]

As I have suggested before, ya need to split this froum.
This stuff does not happen in the cap lock side or any of the other forums like it does on the flintlock side.

 

Mr. Brooks said,
“Now tg, I'm trying to stay out of this.
I have a new motto: "Buy the cheapest manure you can find"
And no Mr. Biggs, my guns don't need "tweaked". You'll have to sight them in, but they work exceptionally well when you receive them, and that's mainly due to the best barrels and locks on the market and 30 years of building experience.”

Since this looked to be directed toward me, but even if it wasn’t, how am I, or whomever, is supposed to take it?

I agree. I wouldn't buy anything from anyone with a bad attitude, I don't care what it was.

 

[fredrader]

I probably don't have any business saying anything but that never stopped me before....

I am very new to the BP stuff for sure and I found this site,Joined,became a paying member and enjoy reading and helping when I can and asking questions because I have had lots of nice people try to help with any questions I may have had..I have read this thread and seems like there is a couple here that has there noses so far up in the air that they cant seem to look back down long enough to give praise to the new guys wanting to get an inexpensive rifle to play with and be proud to show it off no matter how much he paid for it..
I guess could buy just about any rifle I want but I like to buy used inexpensive rifles and tinker with them (Which most don't need tinkered with to work just fine)and get them working..Kinda like a learning experience.The more you work on em the more you learn about out how they work and how to make them work better..Like was said earlier I don't see this fussing in the percussion and pistol forums but I notice it from a few here in the flintlock section..Maybe we do need 2 flint sections one for the upper crust and one for the regular guys since the regular guys seem to get along just fine and try to keep the new guys comming back.. Just my 2 cents..Now...FLAME ON :bow:

 

[Dave K]

Kentuckywindage,I have to know! What sub black powder did you get to go off in your flinter. I don't mean just a few times, but enough to stake your life on it as if you were under attack.

 

[John Wasmuth]

Swampy, I didnt mean you in particular, I used it as a general term. I did not mean to imply you were now or at any other time not stating the truth, from my observation and usage of CVA, Traditions, T/C, Pedersoli, Navy arms, and a few others, I have never had a bad one, maybe I have just been lucky. Staying to the original post the gentleman simply asked about "Inexpensive" rifles, to which we replied. Many, including me, can not afford to spend the money on one of Mikes guns, or any custom well made works of art, just aint in the cards. The original poster asked about an inexpensive rifle for his father, one that would serve the purpose but not cost a small fortune and if a small fortune is a couple thousand bucks, to me thats a small fortune these days.
I look at the guns Mike has made, guns that TG has made and some others and I think man oh man would I love to be able to have one of those. Mike and TG are some of the greatest guys here and I have the utmost respect for them and many others, but not all of us can swing having guns of that caliber so we make due with what we can. I'd rather send some one to the prduction guns as starters than tell them they cant play unless they have a custom flinter and have them shuned away from the sport because of costs. Would you?
I dont think so, especially since I have read many of your posts that encourage people to shoot flinters and to enjoy the sport to the fullest.

If I offended any one with my replies than I apologize but the lower end production guns are what many start out with and many retain because they do what we need them to do. My firts rifle was given to me when I was just a small boy. It was a .41 caliber half stock that started out life as a full stock flinter built they say in 1830 and used by a family member or two during the seminole wars. It had various parts that had been replaced and in same cases very crudely, but it did what it was supposed to do. Was it worth anything? I have no idea, some one stole it from my home while I was away at Boot Camp at Parris Island, that and everything that went with it.
In my opinion we as forum members should do the best we can to get people started in the sport and educate towards better rifles as the progress.

 

[gizamo]

Guys,

Life is too short for all this hoopla...

If the argument isn't about the production vs. custom guns...then it turns to PC or HC correctness. Then it goes round and round about vent liners vs. coned vents... And on and on...

There is a place for entry level guns. Everyone needs a reference point to start from. That reference point should be their own ~ and not yours or mine.

I'll agree with anyone that wants to steer a new shooter away from cheap guns that have the potential to be unsafe. No question on that side of the argument.

But if someone can afford only so much and wants to get started with a production gun...then we should encourage them. Not draw lines in the sand like so many did in the above posts.

Look around, our sport and the intererest in the historical aspect of it is declining... This type of petty bickering has to cease or we will be chasing away the folks that are trying to join with us in our pursuits...

Dang guys, can you give it a break... :v

 

[Claude Mathis]

Guys,

Life is too short for all this hoopla...

If the argument isn't about the production vs. custom guns...then it turns to PC or HC correctness. Then it goes round and round about vent liners vs. coned vents... And on and on...

There is a place for entry level guns. Everyone needs a reference point to start from. That reference point should be their own ~ and not yours or mine.

I'll agree with anyone that wants to steer a new shooter away from cheap guns that have the potential to be unsafe. No question on that side of the argument.

But if someone can afford only so much and wants to get started with a production gun...then we should encourage them. Not draw lines in the sand like so many did in the above posts.

Look around, our sport and the intererest in the historical aspect of it is declining... This type of petty bickering has to cease or we will be chasing away the folks that are trying to join with us in our pursuits...

Dang guys, can you give it a break... :v

Very well said. :thumbsup:

 

[lonehunter]

:applause: :applause: Well said!
Guess im not as quick as Claude :haha:

 

[hanshi]

Goon, you're Bobcat will do fine; I have the "DeerHunter" model which is even cheaper and have taken many deer with it these past 20 years. My only admonition would be to be ready to have to tinker with an inexpensive flint lock. They can be a manure shoot. Other than that, enjoy!

 

But if someone can afford only so much and wants to get started with a production gun...then we should encourage them. Not draw lines in the sand like so many did in the above posts.

No kidding. It doesn't matter how knowledgeable or skilled you are, if you can't get along with people, you won't be much help.

 

[tg]

I think that most folks on either side of the fence on this and other "touchy" issues will often find that the posts that set them off is usually from one or a few individuals on most any forum that the issues that are problematic pop up, by making use of the ignore function one can remove the thorn in the side before it hits a nerve, just a thought that may be a better than always diving in and repeating the same rhetoric, this is not aimed at anyone on either side just food for thought, I have found it to be rather soothing and it helps me reduce my responces to many repetative threads that are never and never will be resolved, or if I am involved in a touchy thread it may prevent seeing the "trigger" that might send me deeper into where there is no point in going.I truely wish a couple of my ex-wives would have had the ignore button option.

 

[John Wasmuth]

"I truely wish a couple of my ex-wives would have had the ignore button option."
:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
Toooooooooooo Funnnnnnnnnnnnnyyyyyyyy. But True!

 

[Stumpkiller]

As I have suggested before, ya need to split this froum.
This stuff does not happen in the cap lock side or any of the other forums like it does on the flintlock side.

We tried that before. But for some reason no one went to the "Bozos with Flintlocks" forum so we put them back together.

 

[John Wasmuth]

LOL! Thanks, I just spit coffee all over my screen! :haha:

 

[Kentuckywindage]

Kentuckywindage,I have to know! What sub black powder did you get to go off in your flinter. I don't mean just a few times, but enough to stake your life on it as if you were under attack.

American Pioneer 2f. I would trust it in a hunting situation. The next time i use it for hunting i seriously am going to hunt with the sub. Also found that it will shoot conicals pretty darn good at 75 yards!

 

[rabjr]

Swampy, I didnt mean you in particular, I used it as a general term. I did not mean to imply you were now or at any other time not stating the truth, from my observation and usage of CVA, Traditions, T/C, Pedersoli, Navy arms, and a few others, I have never had a bad one, maybe I have just been lucky. Staying to the original post the gentleman simply asked about "Inexpensive" rifles, to which we replied. Many, including me, can not afford to spend the money on one of Mikes guns, or any custom well made works of art, just aint in the cards. The original poster asked about an inexpensive rifle for his father, one that would serve the purpose but not cost a small fortune and if a small fortune is a couple thousand bucks, to me thats a small fortune these days.
I look at the guns Mike has made, guns that TG has made and some others and I think man oh man would I love to be able to have one of those. Mike and TG are some of the greatest guys here and I have the utmost respect for them and many others, but not all of us can swing having guns of that caliber so we make due with what we can. I'd rather send some one to the prduction guns as starters than tell them they cant play unless they have a custom flinter and have them shuned away from the sport because of costs. Would you?
I dont think so, especially since I have read many of your posts that encourage people to shoot flinters and to enjoy the sport to the fullest.

If I offended any one with my replies than I apologize but the lower end production guns are what many start out with and many retain because they do what we need them to do. My firts rifle was given to me when I was just a small boy. It was a .41 caliber half stock that started out life as a full stock flinter built they say in 1830 and used by a family member or two during the seminole wars. It had various parts that had been replaced and in same cases very crudely, but it did what it was supposed to do. Was it worth anything? I have no idea, some one stole it from my home while I was away at Boot Camp at Parris Island, that and everything that went with it.
In my opinion we as forum members should do the best we can to get people started in the sport and educate towards better rifles as the progress.

No worry's, I should never have posted on this thread. But, when I see a certain company mentioned, I can't help but remember 20, 30 years ago what I witnessed and I have to open my big mouth because I hate to see someone else end up wishing they didn't waste their money on one. I have no other time spent with any of the other brands you mentioned except for a Pedersoli Bess I owned a few years ago, which worked just fine.

I have to say, where I was, T/C's were the top of the line at one end of the rack and the other end of the rack would contain the cheapest CVA's available. That probably didn't exactly help matters. :v

 

[zimmerstutzen]

In 1972 I got my first muzzleloader. In 1976, I started to attend matches. I loved those weekend rendezvous I showed up wearing denims and a "ponderosa" shirt and K-mart moccasins, shooting a Tc Hawken. All day long I would pay attention to how the older guys loaded their guns, what guns they shot, watched their hold and follow through. They would give me tips and pointers all day. At night, sitting around a fire, they would argue and debate muzzleloader theory. Twists, battle tactics, limitations of rifling, and the evolution of certain types of firearms. Those crusty old curmudgeons called each other names, screamed and hollered, smacked their hands down, etc. But it was never mean, never intended as such. It was a spirited discourse with legitimate differences of opinion.

I couldn't have afforded the tuition for the education I got sitting around those camp fires. I learned so very much just by paying attention asking a few questons and usually just keeping my mouth shut.

In so many ways, this forum is like the debates around those camp fires. I don't know that anyone intended their comments to be mean spirited. There are contrasting opinions. Newbies need to be exposed to both so they can learn both sides of an issue or point. Heck, whether a TC's manure don't stink, or if CVA guns were/are dangerous is something newbies neem to consider. We will all make mistakes along the way. After nearly 40 years of muzzleloading I still learn new stuff nearly every day. This foreum and the few others I frequent are where I pick up what I still learn.

So view this as a couple of well intentioned old crusty curmudgeons in a spirited debate using language that may sound nasty but isn't usually meant that way.

 

[ebiggs1]

As I have suggested before, ya need to split this froum.
This stuff does not happen in the cap lock side or any of the other forums like it does on the flintlock side.

We tried that before. But for some reason no one went to the "Bozos with Flintlocks" forum so we put them back together.

I may have stumbled onto the reason no one went to that forum. Let's see, hmmm, how bout we call it "Flintlock Rifles" and "HC/PC Traditional Flintlock Rifles"?

Although you may get a consensus I belong in your "Bozos with Flintlocks" forum.