I need some help from the experts

[blckhrn]

I am planning to build a flintlock long rifle and need some help. I prefer Roman nose architecture and would also like some inlay. I would like something that may have been carried along the Eastern seaboard before and during the Revolutionary War, specifically between RI and NY. I would also like to inlay the cheekpiece with my family's coat of arms in apple heart wood (red) black cow horn and bone as my ancestors date back in this country to the 1600's and if this would not be inconsistent with a piece carried during this era.

Can anyone recommend a particular style of rifle that would make a good platform for such a rifle? I'd also be grateful to anyone who can recommend a good reference book pertinent to my needs.

Thanks in advance

 

[Ohio Joe]

I think I would bring up; "www.trackofthewolf.com", and read some of their parts discriptions, and look over the rifles they have for sale to get some ideas... It's a good place to start...

 

[blckhrn]

I'd planned on a kit from them. What I was asking regards what was carried in my area. Thanks

 

[Zonie]

I think your in luck.
You indicated you wanted a gun which might have been used in the New York/Rhode Island area but at the same time you said you liked the "Roman nose" style.
Assuming we stay with Pennsylvania Rifles, the most likely Countys would have been Buck or Burk both being close to NY. As they are also some of the oldest counties this helps.
Fortunatly for you, the guns made in Reading is in that area and the guns made there are the ones known for the Roman Nose style.

I am looking at George Shumways book called Pennsylvania Longrifles of Note in which you will find on page 22-23 a beautiful gun by Henry Mauger in Berks County (very pronounced roman nose). On pages 24,26 and 28 are shown Readings Roman Nose style guns made by l.Reedy and Andrew Figthorn all of them being Roman Nose style stocks.

Bear in mind that the Roman Nose style was seldom carried to the extremes offered by some commercial Italian Gun makers. Check out the Stock shape Post I put in the Builders Forum ref Womelsdorf-Reading School.

I have checked out the Dixie Catalogs book list and they offer....YES, the exact book I found these in. Their number for it is BO1506 and last year they wanted $15 for it.

If you have an extra $50 or so bucks you might want BO1643 Kentucky Rifles & Pistols 1750-1850 . It is a great reference and I noted that on page 165 is a New England rifle attributed to G. Matthison of Rhode Island dated 1776. It has several things which I would have guessed it would have, those being an English style lock, no cheek rest and a wrist which comes back quite a long way onto the butt. It is somewhat similar to the New England Fowlers and even a little like a trade gun in this respect. It does not have the Roman Nose style butt.
Hope this gives you something to go on.

 

[blckhrn]

Thanks for the info. I'll definitely be looking up those books. I do have one, "The Pennsylvania Kentucky Rifle" but haven't been able to access that since deciding on this project as I work away from home.

I'm curious to know what you think of the coat of arms idea and if you know of any similar examples. My thoughts are that some of the old timrs were craftsmen and may have embellished rifles in different ways beyond those of the builder.

While I don't know how to calculate drop I think, based on my experience with shotguns, that the type of stock you describe would fit me pretty well. I hae measured my LOP which does come out over 17" but I think that 16 would do. I haven't asked Track if that poses a problem but other stocks can be had. With the exaggerated drop you describe this could either make for a very graceful or a bizarre looking gun. I think it best to go with the longest barrel
possible so as to be continuous with the stock.

It's nice to know that there are still some people who see a flintlock as something other than a Hawken with a new lock. I'm one of the guys who found about this forum on the CVA forum recently. Those guys are great too but the focus seems to be more along the lines of the manufactured kits and assembled guns. It's a little aggravating to mention a Kentucky and hear "Deer Creek". From what I've seen so far there are some extremely knowledgeable people here. I learned what I know about BP shooting from an old gent (long gone) who built his own buying only maple planks, Douglas barrels (35 years ago they were cheap),Turner Kirkland locks and his furntiure. He had made a lock or two. Back then he sold his rifles mostly under $200 but I don't recall any as refined as those I've seen here.

Well, I hope to be able to keep you guys posted on my progress and hope to arrive with something half as photogenic as what I've seen here.

 

[Zonie]

I havent bought a TOW stock so I'm guessing here BUT the stocks from TVM and Pecatonica River had about 2 1/2 inches of material I had to cut off to get a 14 inch pull. That would give a pull of 16 1/2
If your pull is 17 you might not have to remove much wood, but bear this in mind:
Because of the long barrels typical of Kentucky rifles (42 inches is a standard length), a little shorter pull can make the gun feel less muzzleheavy and easier to "hold" on target.

The drop is a matter of the guns style coupled with your own taste.
IMO a large drop can make a small bore gun come right to your line of sight (especially if you add "cast" to it) and make it a joy to shoot, but a big bore gun with heavy loads and a lot of drop will increase the upward rotation of the stock into your cheek bone during firing. As I mentioned in the Post of the Franklin (.50 cal) it whacks my cheekbone when I use moderate loads (75-80 grain).

 

[blckhrn]

Zonie:

I had anticipated the thing twisting with recoil as Cliff, the old timer who got me started in the 60's had told me of this back then. No big deal, I used to shoot trap with an Ithaca 12 sxs (field grade) with a comparatively short pull using field loads until the inside of my mouth was hamburger. Funny thing about that was that I didn't notice it until I was putting it in the car trunk after 4 boxes of shells. That was then but now recoil from a PRB BP long rifle doesn't scare me much. One project I do have going now is a Creedmoor rolling block which will be chambered in 45/120, second only to the 50/140 in BP recoil to the best of my knowledge. To be honest, I'm kinda looking forward to touching that old girl off.

What do you mean by "cast"?

 

[Zonie]

Cast is moving the buttplate off center from the axis of the rifle/shotgun barrel.
If your a right handed shooter, moving the butt plate to the right of the center of the barrel will allow it (the buttplate) to seat on your shoulder while the barrel is lined up slightly inward towards your eye.
This makes the barrel come "right to your eye" without you having to cock your head over to line up on the sights.

Talk to your shotgun friends about it. The REAL EXPENSIVE shotguns usually have this built into the stock and it is common on the best Trap/Skeet guns.

By the way, it doesn't take much cast (offset) to make a notable difference in how the gun "mounts". 3/16 to 5/16 works well for most people and it is not obvious when looking at the gun. No one is going to say, "who set on your stock?"

IMO this is one of the little things which makes one gun "fit" while another gun, which looks just like it, seems to fight you while you line it up on the target.

 

[blckhrn]

Thank you, sir

 

[blckhrn]

Didn't think to ask, did the oldtimers do this?

 

[LRB]

Most old rifles have cast off. By the way, how tall are you? I have a friend who is 6'8", who requires a 16" pull. Are you taller than this? I do not think you can get much more than a 15" pull from TOW precarves, are you measureing properly?

 

[LRB]

I would also add that other than occasional cheek inlays, and thumb plates, inlays on guns of this period were rare to nonexistant.

 

[blckhrn]

Before I stretched my right arm out yanking 500 transfer cases a night out of tote boxes for Chrysler Corp. my inseam was 37 1/2". The arm stretched 2" from my elbow to fingertips compared to my left.

From inside of bent elbow to first joint of index finger (extended) 18 1/4".

Maybe someone at TOW or Dixe will help me out on this matter.

Then a cheek inlay of a coat of arms could be PC?

 

[blckhrn]

BTW, I'm 6'5". Also went to school with a guy 5'4" and 37" inseam. Hell of a wrestler.

 

[Zonie]

I think what Wick was hinting at is most of the guns from the 1765-1780 period usually didn't have inlays on the cheek rest. Working in your favor are some guns which were made in the 1770-1780 era and they have inlays on the cheekrest. These were usually stars or moons but who is to say it can't be something else?
As each gun was hand crafted to the buyers specifications it leaves the door open for things like the famous "Lion" carved gun or the Masonic inlayed gun for instance.
As with most things, there are always exceptions and IMO if you want "your" gun to be an exception then why not do as you want?

There are varying degrees of PC (Period Correctness).
Some are happy with a 1824 English lock on an 1770 German county gun, others are horrified at even thinking of such a thing. Some like the look of German Silver furniture on a 1780 gun, others point out that German Silver wasn't used (or even invented) until the after 1800.

Only you know where you fit into this area so only you can decide if you want a cheek piece inlay or not.

 

[blckhrn]

I guess I just don't want to make something that is so out of line that I won't shoot it in public.

Bottom line here is that I'll probably set it in a stained maple plank first to see how it looks. Always can make a belt buckle outta it.