hunting with matchlocks and wheel locks

[zimmerstutzen]

Under PA law, matchlocks and wheel locks of proper ga loaded with buckshot are legal to use for deer in the "special regulations areas" near pittsburgh and Phila. But for the rest of the state, a muzzleloader must be ignited by percussion cap, primer or flint. I asked why in a PA hunting forum (Huntingpa forums in the law and regulation thread.) The answer from a retired WCO, John Shutt, was that everybody knows they are inaccurate and the question "is absurd." when I pointed out that ignition has no bearing on accuracy and obviously they are legal as shotguns with buckshot for the suburban counties, the moderator locked the thread.

Kind of galls me that the uneducated former gov't game officer got to spread that kind of misinformation.

 

[jsn]

I believe that a wheellock is more acurate than a flintlock due to ignition speed and under thier law a snaphaunce would be legal and it has one of the slowest ignition times of any black powder gun........its kinda wierd

 

[wahkahchimaol.com]

Would the Fish and Game agree to a test? I now have about 120 shots down my wheelock rifle. It's vastly more complicated than a flintlock but equally as fast. It uses a standard muzzleloader barrel so it is just as accurate. Perhaps we could have a Wheellock challenge in PA and show them.

 

[wulf]

They will not change their minds...........That
would require admitting they were wrong....HA!

 

[wy0mn]

Another case of people being promoted beyond their abilities, or educated beyond their native intelligence.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

A great many DNR or other officials are not any more experts in firearms or in hunting than any other Law Enforcement person. They are hired to do the job, and the training is set by the state legislature. Unfortunately there is a trend to get anybody who will apply vs. recruiting men and women who know the sports first, and are willing to enforce the regulations. One of the best autotheft detectives I ever knew was a good auto thief as a teen, one of the best narcotics cops I ever new was a "runner" for a dealer as a teen, and a couple of the best DNR cops I ever met .., one poached a lot as a teen, and the other ran 'shine as a teen....,

PA has a large group of DNR officers, and so they still have a great many qualified folks, but here in Maryland the days of the classic game warden are waning, and the support staff seems to be of the single digit IQ club. Case in point..., I used to moonlight as a "call taker" at our county PD dispatch center, and a DNR dispatcher called on the phone, rather unconcerned, as one of her female officers had been jumped by a suspect while serving a poaching summons, and had been disarmed. :shocked2:

Now I'm not faulting the lady DNR officer, I am faulting the morons who sent all 120 lbs. of her out to deal with a 250 pound criminal, alone. (Nobody thought to check to see if "Tiny" had other criminal violations in his past - duh) :shake: Anyway the DNR Dispatcher wanted to know if the county police might have somebody available??? :shake:

So I hit the emergency button, launching the call as a "signal 13 - officer needs assistance with armed suspect" which sent everybody at high speed with lights and sirens [cue music - Ride of The Valkyries]. So I asked the dolt at DNR if she had a description of the man who took the officer's handgun..., she asked "why?" :cursing: Gee maybe because the house he's at has a back door, and he's running around inside or outside somewhere with a fully loaded 9mm Beretta?? :cursing: "Is that a good enuf reason lady?"

Anyway the DNR officer was OK, and the guy came out without further incident, and they found the officer's handgun. Could've been a tragedy though, and the DNR dispatcher was as worthless as teets on a boar hog.

So when you point out the bureaucrat's lack of knowledge, you make it obvious to all what a lack of expertise they have, and this is then a threat, so the folks locked the thread. I'm surprised they even have a blog for folks to converse with the PWC.


LD

 

[BillinOregon]

LD: That's just incredible. Thank God the officer was not seriously harmed.

Back to the topic, Oregon forbids matchlocks for hunting, period. I can't say why, but we have our share of village idiots at fish and wildlife. I recently asked whether our agency had considered allowing the harvest of upland and small game with "adult" air rifles, as California allows. The reply I got was that not being able to hear the shots would make it harder for LEOs to enforce game laws.

:youcrazy:

 

[sc45-70]

That should make bow hunting illegal also :idunno:

SC45-70

 

[Loyalist Dave]

DON'T CONFUSE THE ISSUE WITH COMMON SENSE

LD

 

Your female agent was lucky. September 30th of this year, a veteran Louisiana Wildlife and Fisheries Sergeant Paul Stuckey was killed, answering a late night call. Poachers are knowingly breaking the law. Does sending one agent to a night call make any sense to anyone here???

CP

 

When I first started hunting in Massachusetts in the late 90's, I had a run in with a Massachusetts Department of Fish & Game. I had a bear ticket and was out to fill it. A game officer came up on me and wanted to take my GPR. He cited that it was illegal to hunt with a blackpowder rifle. I told him that would be true if it were deer season. But, the regulations clearly stated the bear may only be taken with a rifle. And no where in the regs were blackpowder rifles prohibited for the taking of bear. This was finally cleared up with a call and a letter to the Commissioner's office in Boston. It really is sad when the officer's enforcing the law, don't know the law. And these people are required to have degrees in wildlife biology!

 

[Gotspark]

I would say "unbelievable" to that account but unfortunately we all know it's not. :shake:

 

[MJuingong]

When we discuss the "laws", we have to distinguish between the statutes passed by the state legislature and the regulations that may be put in by the administrative agencies.

In both instances though, certain assumptions will be made, rather than tested. Matchlocks for example, are accepted as inaccurate because of general ignorance (and I do mean "general") shared by legislators and administrators alike.

If you want to cure it, you have to discuss eith your state senator and assemblyman, and organize, and politicize.

Tough, but that's it.

 

[oldfart1956]

Under PA law, matchlocks and wheel locks of proper ga loaded with buckshot are legal to use for deer in the "special regulations areas" near pittsburgh and Phila. But for the rest of the state, a muzzleloader must be ignited by percussion cap, primer or flint.

Kind of galls me that the uneducated former gov't game officer got to spread that kind of misinformation.

And speaking of misinformation Zimmy...this is incorrect. Page 45, top right under regs for firearms and ammunition; muzzleloading long guns of ANY type, .44cal or larger..etc. etc. etc. This is during the statewide buck&doe season. So yes, you can use any (as stated) ignition system during the statewide buck&doe season. Not however, during the late (read flintlock only) season. As well, though I don't understand why, during the early muzzleloader season. During that week it's flintlocks/percussed and inline. Don't like it? Petition them to allow ANY ignition for the early season. I'll even sign that petition! But please leave our flintlock season alone. Every time they tamper with the late flintlock season they bugger it up...lets leave it. Audie...the Oldfart.

 

[oldfart1956]

Not that I wish to beat this to death...but...any type ignition is also leagle for small game hunting as well. Page 21 Arms&ammo; Muzzleloading rifles and handguns .40cal. or less and shotguns 10ga. or less. Also, for bear...page 31 ; muzzleloading long guns of any type .44cal or larger or muzzleloading handguns .50cal or larger and shotguns. As well, elk, muzzleloading firearms (including handguns) at least .50cal. propelling a projectile weighing at least 210 grains. (page 31) All this is right in the handbook you recieve with your hunting license. Read it there or go to the Pa. Game Commiss. website or their new Facebook page. Audie...

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Audi, do you read the "digest" to which you refer where it says it is only a guide and is NOT THE LAW????

This is the law directly quoted from the regulations:

(c) Muzzleloading deer season.

(1) Permitted devices. It is lawful to hunt deer during the muzzleloading deer season with a muzzleloading firearm. The firearm’s ignition mechanism must consist of a percussion cap, primer or flintlock fired design. The firearm must be a .44 caliber or larger single-barrel long gun or a .50 caliber or larger single-barrel handgun that propels single-projectile ammunition.

That actual LAW restricts the muzzleloaders for early muzzleloader season to percussion, primer (inline) and flintlock. NO muzzleloaders ignited any other way. Take notice the word "must"

The misinformation is the Digest to which you referred. The actual law found in the regulations as cited above is quite different.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

as for regular firearms deer season:
d) Regular and special firearms deer seasons.

(1) Permitted devices. It is lawful to hunt deer during the regular and special firearms deer seasons with any of the following devices:

(iv) A muzzleloading firearm as permitted under subsection (b)(1) or (c)(1).
{b(1) if flint and c(10 is set forth above, percussion, primer or flint}

(2) Prohibitions. While hunting deer during the regular and special firearms deer seasons, it is unlawful to:

(ii) Use a device not provided for in the act or in this subsection.

Here is the exact regulation for bear:

(b) Regular and extended firearms bear seasons.

(1) Permitted devices. It is lawful to hunt bear during the regular and extended firearms bear seasons with any of the following devices:

iv) A muzzleloading firearm. The firearm’s ignition mechanism must consist of a percussion cap, primer or flintlock fired design. The firearm must be a .44 caliber or larger single-barrel long gun or a .50 caliber or larger single-barrel handgun that propels single-projectile ammunition.



As you can see, the misinformation is not from me at all.

As for Elk, you are indeed correct:

§ 141.47. Elk.

(a) Permitted devices. It is lawful to hunt elk during the elk season with any of the following devices:

(3) A muzzleloading firearm. The firearm must be .50 caliber or larger firearm that propels single-projectile ammunition 210 grains or larger.

 

[ryoung14]

How can one comply with a law that no one can understand?

What good are guidelines that only confuse the issue?

How can we expect F&G officers to understand a law that those above them have only a weak grasp of?

Seems like everyone and anyone can get into the regulation/law writing business. This doesn't make for good laws. Good laws are based on common sense and are clear and unambiguous.

The debate here indicates that the PWC hasn't done their homework.

 

[Happydog]

In the early 1960,(?) a florida legislator wanted to pass a law requiring motorcyclists to wear seat belts. Politician's ignorance never goes away.