Help ID Shotgun

[vtbuck223]

Hi...I picked up a bunch of gun parts yesterday and these were among them. I believe that this went with the two barrels that appear to have Birmingham marks. Any idea who this Morgan was? I hate the old English block letters...I can never make them out. It appears to say ?? Morgan Petersburg ?? (Va...I kind of assumed) Thanks for taking the time.

 

[TFoley]

Hi...I picked up a bunch of gun parts yesterday and these were among them. I believe that this went with the two barrels that appear to have Birmingham marks. Any idea who this Morgan was? I hate the old English block letters...I can never make them out. It appears to say ?? Morgan Petersburg ?? (Va...I kind of assumed) Thanks for taking the time.

It reads 'W Morgan Petersburg'

...and has Birmingham proof marks as well....interesting stuff.

Looks like a gun made of parts from England by Mr W Morgan of Petersburg VA.

tac

 

[Lorne Johnson]

TAC's view makes sense. I haven't come across similar lettering on English guns (for what it's worth). The expected twist pattern is visible on the barrels.

 

[TFoley]

TAC's view makes sense. I haven't come across similar lettering on English guns (for what it's worth). The expected twist pattern is visible on the barrels.

Yup, that's two of thinking along the same lines - a couple of barrels and a rib - got the actions/locks?

Most English guns of the period do not have plain ribs like this one, but ornately figured to cut down glare, and the titling is usually very much smaller, and either at or toward the breech end of the barrels.

tac

 

[Lorne Johnson]

TAC's view makes sense. I haven't come across similar lettering on English guns (for what it's worth). The expected twist pattern is visible on the barrels.

Yup, that's two of thinking along the same lines - a couple of barrels and a rib - got the actions/locks?

Most English guns of the period do not have plain ribs like this one, but ornately figured to cut down glare, and the titling is usually very much smaller, and either at or toward the breech end of the barrels.

tac

That's interesting. I have two original English doubles (1830's and 1850's), both with fairly plain ribs, although one is raised. So, I didn't know they were trying to cut the glare yet.

I do have a Pedersoli copy with a textured rib.

 

[Austringer]

Hi, I notice the initials "H & S" on the barrels - Nigel Brown in British Gunmakers vol 2 lists two firms with these initials :

Harrington and Scott, Cecil Street Birmingham 1834

Hollis and Sheath, 10/11 Weaman Road Birmingham 1849-1853

Both are listed as Gun and Riflemakers, and this was the ML period before the BL

 

[JV Puleo]

Hollis & Sheath were major participants in the export market. The overwhelming likelihood is that the gun was simply made by them, (or rather, for them. I doubt they made anything themselves) exported as a finished product and marked with the retailers name. These were business men and tradesmen...not artists. They were interested in profit and the B'ham trade so dominated the American market that it is very unlikely that there is any such thing as a truly "American Made" side-by-side percussion (or flint) double gun.

 

[vtbuck223]

I was offline for awhile thanks to "Irene"...she pounded us pretty good up in the Green Mountain State. So that is a W !?! No wonder I hate old English block letters. As an aside...I have a small brass military button collection...recently came across a military school button with 3 such letters...thought I had figured out what the letters were (along with 4 or 5 other people I showed it to)...until I positively ID'ed the button...and figured out we had been looking at it upside down the whole time!....I wish I had the locks to go with this gun...but only the barrels. Thanks for all of your thoughts...very helpful information. I'll keep my eyes open for W. Morgan....if his name is on one gun it must be on another.

 

[TFoley]

...So that is a W !?!

That's what I said.

tac

 

[vtbuck223]

Thanks tac ...now I know who to come to for my old English block letter identification in the future. I have been doing some searches of W.Morgans and it led me to wonder if it was at all possible that the name on this gun was not the maker or a merchant....but the owner? It seems unlikely.... but has anyone ever seen an owners name on the rib before?

 

[vtbuck223]

Persistence pays off! I found this reference in the book "The Old South's Modern Worlds..." p.198 "gunsmith William Morgan converted his workshop into a mercantile establishment he called the Petersburg Gun and Sporting Store".

Also: I had posted the question on another forum and got this information reference from Jim Whisker...
Morgan, William(1811- ). gunsmith. 1851, WM. Morgan & Bros., Sycamore, Petersburg[1851 State directory];1861-63, corner of 7th and Main sts.,Richmond[Gardner,p.136].1880,William Morgan,gunsmith,born in Scotland,69;Alethea T.A.,wife 69;Alethea W.,24[census].

 

[vtbuck223]

As another aside related to this topic:
When I first started to search for W.Morgan...I came across his son William Morgan Jr. I thought that there must be a connection but was unsure until the rest of the information came forth. William Morgan Jr. was mustered in as a private in the 12th Virginia Infantry...seriously wounded at Crampton's Gap...and later commissioned a Lt. He survived the war and later became a merchant in the Baltimore area. W. Morgan Sr....is noted to have left Petersburg and was in Richmond from 1861-1863. It makes one wonder if he was employed in the manufacture of arms during that time for the war effort. These connections are what really interests me about such pieces...it makes it well worth my investment of $7 for the pile of gunparts. Thanks again...to all who contributed.