Help get lead legal for waterfowl

[waksupi]

I am going to throw this out for your consideration. I will be sending this to my representatives in Washington, and other hunter freindly people there. With any luck, we may be able to gain some ground on hunting. Please spread it around to people interested in BP hunting.

A proposal regarding Muzzle loading and Damascus barreled shotguns

When the laws were passed restricting lead shot were put into effect, many older shotguns were made unusable for waterfowl hunting. Muzzle loading shot guns, and other antique shotguns, are unsafe to shoot with substitute shot. Severe damage will result to the firearms, and could cause injury or death.

The numbers of these firearms in the United States are miniscule. I would be surprised if they comprise .001% of guns that would be in the field during the season. The amount of lead shot fired during a season would be negligible. I propose there be a lifting of restrictions on this class of firearm, i.e. antique Damascus barreled, and muzzle loading shotgun for the use of lead for waterfowl.

Please help us restore the use of these fine old firearms to the hunting fields.

 

[biliff]

Don't think this will wash since Bismuth shot is available (expensive but available) and can be used in muzzleloaders and older modern shotguns without damage. There are also other substitutes that use tungsten imbedded in a softer polymer that are safe as well but the name escapes me right now.

 

[waksupi]

Don't think this will wash since Bismuth shot is available (expensive but available) and can be used in muzzleloaders and older modern shotguns without damage. There are also other substitutes that use tungsten imbedded in a softer polymer that are safe as well but the name escapes me right now.

I must admit I am playing the anti-hunters own game, of giving if not untrue, somewhat misleading information. We know there are methods to use with various shot cups for modern shot substitute. However, they are not the way the guns were intended to be loaded and shot.

This doesn't need to be a big arguement in D.C. I rather see it as one of those riders tagged onto the end of a bill, that will be overlooked by most parties.

 

[gordy]

Anything is worth a try,but as was said I don't think it will wash.If it were other than an enviormental issue,there may have been a chance,this dosn't mean we shouldn't try. :front:

 

[Runner]

I am hunting several conservation areas on my walks since going to the farm is too expensive for day hunts right now. They require non-toxic shot for all hunting because they have wet parts to them. I just went today and bought a 10 pound bag of #5's and a big bag of steel shot cups. They are a pain to load and have to mess with, but that is ok. Using my muzzleloader in the modern world is part of the challenge. Now, at the farm and on private ground I use lead. Tomorrow I play with patterning the new load.

 

[gmww]

As a modern shotgun Water fowl hunter I sure miss the lead shot and clean kills. I'm about to start setting my Underhammer up with a fouler barrel soon. With that said, I am opposed to going back to lead. In Washington state, the Swans over the years have been dieing due to lead poisoning. It is a mystery as of yet where they are getting it.

The numbers are in the hundreds each year. They are finding lead pellets in the digestive system. Please don't confuse me with some bunny hugger cause I love to hunt and eat my game. Heck Sand hill crane sounds tasty too.

It is illegal to hunt swans here because of the small numbers. I'd love to hunt them when the numbers get back up. Wish we could figure out where the pellets are coming from.

As far as a substitute, is heavey shot usable like lead or not? :hmm:

 

If yer not gonna use steel, I would go with Bismuth. Heavy shot is heavier than lead but harder than steel and very tough on M/L barrels, and costs even more than bismuth. Bill

 

[DGeraths]

Excuse me, but the requirement of non-toxic shot is not a law designed to inconvenience you... it is designed to protect the very ground you are hunting on and the animals that live there.

If keeping lead from the environment and everything that lives in it from getting sick requires me to spend a few extra bucks and a little more effort than I am all for that.

Don't like having to spend some extra to protect your guns barrel and protect the environment at the same time? Don't hunt... it is just that simple.

Lead shot does horrible things to the environment and it is amazing how much of it can build up in the water, even after a short time. I would not for an instant think that my pocket book or gun barrel is more important than the pond I am hunting on... and IMHO, neither should you.

:m2c:

 

[waksupi]

The intent of the restriction on lead shot was a ruse by the wacko enviromentalists. Thier intent was to stop all waterfowl hunting. The swans and other waterfowl found with lead in thier system, are never checked for other causes of death. Lead is naturally occuring in most of the world, and does not magically appear from the muzzle of a shotgun. The USFWS is looking into this now, and now believe the lead shot is not a significant contributing factor, as it encapsulates with oxide in a short amount of time.
I don't expect all to support this. But I will go forward, and expect favorable results.

 

[Dave K]

I guess maybe the verdict is still out then. Plumbers had to change solder to ones that didn't contain lead, for the same reasons that lead was removed from gasoline. House paint must be declared on older home sales if it is known to have lead in the paint. In some fisheries, it is not safe for young girls or women of child bearing age to eat fish from the contaminated waters. Yes, lead is a natural substance, but few creatures eat it by the pellet or fork full. Personally I have not done any water fowling, but I am sure I will some day. When that day comes, unless convinced otherwise, I will be using Bismuth.

 

[gmww]

The intent of the restriction on lead shot was a ruse by the wacko enviromentalists. Thier intent was to stop all waterfowl hunting. The swans and other waterfowl found with lead in thier system, are never checked for other causes of death. Lead is naturally occuring in most of the world, and does not magically appear from the muzzle of a shotgun. The USFWS is looking into this now, and now believe the lead shot is not a significant contributing factor, as it encapsulates with oxide in a short amount of time.
I don't expect all to support this. But I will go forward, and expect favorable results.

Here is information from Wa. Dept. of Fish and Wildlife on the lead poisoning found and tested in the Swans here in Washington state.

Searching For Sources of Lead Poisoning in Swans

Just so you know, I love hunting and water fouling. I also have enjoyed the come back of many of the water foul species in the past decade. I attribute a lot of that to Duck's Unlimited and other pro hunting organization that put back into habitat.

I miss the kills my little 2 3/4" 12ga wingmaster would do with lead. I'd love to be able to use it in my future muzzle loader fouler. However, I want to keep hunting and believe from the information that I read about its effect on wild life.

If you follow the link you will see that the food chain to lead poisoning could continue up into other species such as our Bald Eagle who eat the dead swans killed by lead poisoning.

I think the real problem is the cost of Bismouth and other substitutes. If they were as cheap as lead we probably would not be having this discussion thread. eace:

 

[DGeraths]

The intent of the restriction on lead shot was a ruse by the wacko enviromentalists. Thier intent was to stop all waterfowl hunting.

Uh huh...

The swans and other waterfowl found with lead in thier system, are never checked for other causes of death. Lead is naturally occuring in most of the world, and does not magically appear from the muzzle of a shotgun.

Lead does in fact occur naturally, but not in convenient and easy to swallow pellets. Does it "magically" appear from the muzzle of a shotgun? Nope... But what it does do is get taken out of it's natural state, refined, purified, made into condensed little pellets and then shot right back into the environment at about 1000 times their natural potency.

Ya know, aspirin is found in nature as well, but I don't see anyone chewing on a willow tree... why? Because it is not as potent or condensed in amount while in it's natural state. The same can be said for lead.

I got into this whole lead conversation one other time with a bird hunter at a gun show who was whining about using steel shot in his gun. He to was saying how natural lead is and how it is a simple part of nature. It shut him right up when I asked him...

"if it is so bloody natural, why don't you go ahead a swallow a tablespoon of your lead shot once a week and see what that does to your health?"

So much for the natural argument.

I hate to be so argumentative here, but what I am hearing is someone who is perfectly happy harming the environment and the animals that live in it so he can save a few bucks and not have to buy bismuth.

I am not a "wacko environmentalist"... I am a hunter just as you are. But I respect the environment and if that means spending an extra $50 every couple of years to buy some bismuth, then I am more than willing to do that.

But I will go forward, and expect favorable results.

You go right ahead, but don't be so quick to expect favorable results... especially when there is an alternative to lead that is just as good.

 

[jim gray]

I agree with most of what has been stated by gmww and Dgeraths here, but does this statement not bother anyone else

I must admit I am playing the anti-hunters own game, of giving if not untrue, somewhat misleading information.

?

I would like to think that we are the ones using the truth to protect our sport and that we hunters have the luxury of being able to maintain a firm ethical footing in the issue of hunters vs. anti-hunting propagandists. If securing the future of our sport means giving up lead shot for waterfowl, then by all means use something else or choose other game.

 

[waksupi]

Let it bother you as it may. The fact remains that these firearms were intended to be used in a certain manner, and hard shot can and will damage the barrels. This isn't such a concern in the modern barrels, as they vcan be easily changed. I am bothered that so many here have bought into junk science.

 

[gmww]

For anyones reading enjoyment here is a link from the US Gov. EPA web site on Lead Poisoning.

EPA Web page on lead poisoning.

Junk science? We've known about lead poisoning for decades. I remember reading how historians theorized that many in the Roman empire suffered from lead poisoning. Their cups and plates were made from lead. Ever read the warnings that come with the lead pots for casting? Why do you think indoor ranges require fully jacketed bullets? Lead is no longer used in ceramic glaze for dishes and cups! You can choose to call it junk science.

I'd like to see the periodicals your basing the "Junk science" statement on. Could you please post the links to the studies that show it to be junk science? You mentioned a study earlier in this post. I'd like to see that study and how what research they've done.

The EPA Link talks about lead dust in the dirt around houses that came from the lead in the paint. DUST! I'd like to know how long it takes a #2 or BB lead pellet to break down in the enviroment.

Until I can read convincing studies showing me what you claim, most of us are going to stick with the known science already established.

 

[DGeraths]

I am bothered that so many here have bought into junk science.

Why don't you look up information on the Franklin Expedition... ::

To be so anal about the care of your guns barrel that it clouds your own basic common sense, that is one thing. But to sit here and tell us clear headed people that lead effecting the environment is "junk science"... heck, that's just stupid.

My advice is simple. Use Bismuth or other non-toxic shot or just don't hunt.

 

[Dave K]

I am sorry Ric, what bothers me is that you beleive it is ok to pollute the enviroment that you love to hunt in. They have even taken tooth paste out of the old metal/lead containers of old. Suppose it was a way to save money or help keep people healthy so they come back and buy more product? I agree with what has been said. If you need or want to hunt water fowl, use bismuth or hunt something else. ff: Ever thought about snorting asbestos? That is probably some other dumb science we all bought into, isn't that right Steve McQueen. After all asbestos is a natural substance as well.

 

[gmww]

USFW search engine

I've typed in Lead shot and came up with eleven pages of topics but I did not see anything about the USFWS new study on lead shot. Maybe I just over looked it but above is the search engine site.

 

[roundball]

FWIW, I admire people's initiatives to challenge established standards and for that I applaud the effort.

However, I am completely convinced of the facts regarding "lead poisoning" from lead, whether through fumes or ingestion, etc.

Yes, lead occurs naturally, but so does sunlight, and inappropriate exposure to it is proven to cause skin cancer.

IMO, I doubt that your request will get any traction, and if you get a reply at all, it'll be quoting chapter & verse of the stated dangers of lead in the food chain, to say nothing of waterfowl deaths as a direct result.

And I'm afraid the notion of: "a miniscule amount" won't play very well in an age of being quality concious...ie: how many babies is it OK for a hosptial to drop in the nursery"...how many wildlife deaths is OK to allow a few people to use lead in such and such a gun. And then there's the enforcement difficulties..."that's not a damascus barrel...yes it is...no it's not"...etc.

I firmly believe that your approach is a proper one...we have to take issues forward, but FWIW, I personally don't agree that it should be allowed, and I think you'll have a very tall mountain to climb on this issue...

:m2c: :thumbsup:

 

[Runner]

I want to know where you can by bismuth for 50$ The lead argument is dead.