Hawkeye's Killdeer

[hawkeye1755]

Just find my old books from J.F.Cooper.
It's start: It was a cloudless day in july 1740....
1740? At that moment i ask myself , what kind of rifle was[url] KILLDEER.In[/url] the book stand:
The piece was a little longer than usual, and had evidently been turned out from the work shops of some manufacturer of a superior order. It had a few silver ornaments, though, on the whole, it would have been deemed a plain piece by most frontier men, its great merit consisting in the accuracy of its bore, the perfection of the details, and the excellence of the metal....
So what do you think.
Cooper write 'The Deerslayer' in 1841 but the story is in the year 1740.
In 'THE LAST OF THE MOHICANS' from 1992 Killdeer
looks like a Lehigh Rifle.
:hatsoff:

 

[hangfire1755]

The rifle in the movie "Last of the Mohicans" built by Wayne Watson
was patterned after a Lehigh

 

[Norskie]

Fenimore Cooper wasn't known for his research or accuracy. Read Mark Twain's commentaries on Cooper and you'll fall down laughing.

 

[bnail]

Fenimore Cooper wasn't known for his research or accuracy. Read Mark Twain's commentaries on Cooper and you'll fall down laughing.

I literally cried, I laughed so hard.
only a "Fenimore Indian" could throw himself at a keel boat. . . and miss! :rotf:
But that aside, I think the question is viable, kind of rifle would a 1740's New York Frontiersman have carried? take that question and apply Cooper's rough description, and I wonder myself what type would emerge :hmm:
I always invisioned a longer Edwared Marshal styled rifle.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Here's a link:

Twain's list of Cooper's 18 Literary Infractions. ;-)

(Wes Studi with a copy of Killdeer)

Killdeer wouldn't have been a Lehigh, as Andreas Albrecht, the man who is thought to have instructed the group that became the Lehigh gunsmiths (i.e. Moll, the Rupps, Neihard, Kuntz), didn't start his Moravian settlement at Christian's Spring until after he emigrated from Germany in 1750. It started out as a music school, so the smithing doubltessly came a bit later. Oerter and Dickert also apprenticed under Albrecht, so he certainly can be thought of as the father of the Pannsylvania longrifle. But a Lehigh prior to 1760 is suspect. The early Lehighs were "clubbier" in the butt, and the prop rifle shows that. They at least chose an early style, though it may be a meld of several styles.

I couldn't tell you who might have been making rifles in America in 1740. As Twain points out, Cooper used poetic license in the large, economy size.

 

[hangfire1755]

The rifle in the movie is a based on a Moll rifle, but after a lot of changes by director Michael Mann, Wayn Watson came up with final version with a 50",.50cal, Getz barrel with polished iron(steel) furniture to make Mann happy.

 

[bnail]

Forgive my ignorance here, but I never new the Albrecht style was in the Lehigh school, hmm, :hmm:
I know there's got to be earlier pieces, but isn't Albrect's work thee earliest identifiable style?

 

[mikelange]

Albrecht didn't work in the Lehigh School, per se; nor did he work in the Lancaster School. His work for the most part pre-dated and influenced both.

 

[mikelange]

In reference to Hawkeye's rifle, since that was actually the topic -- it's been pretty well established that the rifle in the 1992 movie is too late a style for 1757. As for Cooper's novels, trying to deduce from his narrative what sort of rifle Hawkeye carried is about like trying to find your way around upstate New York based on his descriptions of the country. The fact is -- I don't know how to put this nicely -- while the majority of readers through the years seem to consider him a great storyteller, the factual details he got right are few and far between.

I have to say this. It's been percolating deep down inside for years. I've read everything from "The Lord Of The Rings" to Shakespeare to the Bible to Masonic ritual, and had no trouble with any of it. I have yet to make it all the way through the third chapter of "Last Of The Mohicans", and if I never again read the phrase, "Though I be a man without a cross...." I will die a happy man.

Sorry. I know the books are classics and beloved by many. Obviously I'm missing something.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Forgive my ignorance here, but I never new the Albrecht style was in the Lehigh school, hmm, :hmm:
I know there's got to be earlier pieces, but isn't Albrect's work thee earliest identifiable style?

That was my point. Albrecht pre-dates the Lehigh, but his apprentices went on to form it. Albrecht brought the technology and technique from the Germann States (it wasn't "Germany" at the time) and his students spread out through PA forming several of the classic schools.

You couldn't have a 1740 Lehigh if the Lehigh style was 25 years from being developed. voyez-vous?

 

[tnlonghunter]

I very much understand your feelings about Hawkeye's personality in the books. I've read the Deerslayer and Last of the Mohicans, and the first half of the Pathfinder. It's really thick. But what I like is the reverence Hawkeye has for nature.

 

[Maestro]

Albrecht didn't work in the Lehigh School, per se; nor did he work in the Lancaster School. His work for the most part pre-dated and influenced both.

But Albrecht was located (at Christian's Spring) in Nazareth in Northampton (Lehigh) County, so geographically speaking, why couldn't the Christian's Spring guns could be considered "early Lehigh/Northampton school" - I know that stylistically they're different than what the Northampton/Lehigh evolved into. Actually, IMO, the early Lancaster's look more like the result of the evolution of the Christian's Spring guns - not surprising, since Albrecht himself moved to Lititz and, as Stumpy mentioned, also influenced Jacob Dickert.

(I guess I was typing this while the two previous posts were made - sorry if redundant.)

 

[Stumpkiller]

That's what makes it so much fun. There were "transitionals" and early vs. late pieces. Many rifles are unsigned and undated, so there is always conjecture. When I was hunting around for ideas on my Lehigh project I found more use of words like "usually", "frequently", "often" and "seldom" instead of "always" or "never". Everyone hedges.

You also see things like identical furniture pieces on different maker's rifles, so it is likely they outsourced or purchased components. I think it was Kuntz that is thought to have done engraving for several other gunsmiths in Northampton County (Lehigh County was split from Northampton County in the mid 1800's). I throw folks a curve and tell them my Lehigh is a "Early Northampton Style" to buy time while squirming.

I have relatives from Lititz and, darned them, they didn't pass any firearms as far as to my wife's twig on the family tree.

 

[Ridge]

The only thing I can add to this topic is that in the book "The Pioneers" Cooper identifies the rifle as a .54 caliber.

I've read all of the Leatherstocking Tales and loved them.

An old girlfriend of mine was an English major and couldn't read past the first chapter of any of them.......go figure.

 

[DGeraths]

Sorry. I know the books are classics and beloved by many. Obviously I'm missing something.

You are right, you are missing something. They are wonderful books.

 

[FearNot]

Sorry. I know the books are classics and beloved by many. Obviously I'm missing something.

Sounds like,some people, maybe not you in particular, are missing the ability to suspend reality and accept that these books are fiction. I suspect that, unllike today, not much in the way of historical research was done for fiction back then.

Come on it's a made up story - if it were presented as history it would be (you should excuse the pun) a different story.

 

[Stumpkiller]

A selection from Fenimore Cooper's Literary Offenses - by Mark Twain.

3. They require that the personages in a tale shall be alive, except in the case of corpses, and that always the reader shall be able to tell the corpses from the others. But this detail has often been overlooked in the "Deerslayer" tale.

4. They require that the personages in a tale, both dead and alive, shall exhibit a sufficient excuse for being there. But this detail also has been overlooked in the "Deerslayer" tale.

5. The require that when the personages of a tale deal in conversation, the talk shall sound like human talk, and be talk such as human beings would be likely to talk in the given circumstances, and have a discoverable meaning, also a discoverable purpose, and a show of relevancy, and remain in the neighborhood of the subject at hand, and be interesting to the reader, and help out the tale, and stop when the people cannot think of anything more to say. But this requirement has been ignored from the beginning of the "Deerslayer" tale to the end of it.

I made it through the first two and a half books in the series from a set my Dad had. Maybe I'll try again. :winking: Been too busy lately shootin 'sartain nail heads at 100 yards. :haha:

 

[tnlonghunter]

maybe we should add shooting at potatoes thrown through the air to the next forum shooting competition (rifles only, though) :rotf:

 

[bnail]

Sorry. I know the books are classics and beloved by many. Obviously I'm missing something.

Sounds like,some people, maybe not you in particular, are missing the ability to suspend reality and accept that these books are fiction. I suspect that, unllike today, not much in the way of historical research was done for fiction back then.

Come on it's a made up story - if it were presented as history it would be (you should excuse the pun) a different story.

I agree Fearnot, it's fiction. . . VERY BAD fiction :snore:
I don't think accuracy is anybody's concern, it's Hawkeye's long-winded Soliloquies that drives people nuts:youcrazy:

 

[Houchins]

Hello, have read the whole series and enjoyed. While I could pick it apart at times I think Cooper wove a wonderful tale loosely based on period history. Now although I do not know what styles of different rifles you guys mentioned( sure would like to learn though :winking: ) I would love to have one like is pictured above. Even though its not historically correct for the time period it is the one I picture for the fabled Le'Longue Karbine :thumbsup: If anyone could recommend some good online reading which explains the different styles and types of rifles and muskets I would really appreciate it. Thanks, Craig