Has Powder Law changed?

[Zonie]

While digging thru some of my old books I came across a book published by Hodgdon in 1971.
The title of this book is HODGDON'S NewBlack Powder DATA MANUAL No.1.

At the bottom of the first page it says:

New Federal Law Governing Black Powder
Commerce in explosives, including black powder but not smokeless powder, is now governed by Title XI, Regulation of Explosives, of the Organized Crime Control Act of 1970. This law went into effect Feb. 12, 1971.

Under terms of the law, up to 5 lb. sales of black powder are specifically exempted from all regulation.
More than 5 lbs. may be purchased within your state of residence by filling out Federal form 4710.
Only dealers with EXPLOSIVES LICENSE (not firearms license) can purchase and sell over 5 lbs. out of their state of residence. Only licensed dealers may store over 5 lbs.

Some cities and states have additional laws. Transportation by common carrier is regulated by the Department of Transportation. Because of extremely high minimum charges placed on explosives by most carriers, black powder is difficult to obtain in many locations.


My reason for posting this is because I know that some of our members have bought over 5 pounds of black powder. This brings up the question, are they violating the above Federal law by not filling out the Federal form # 4710?

 

[Semisane]

This brings up the question, are they violating the above Federal law by not filling out the Federal form # 4710?

And how would you know they didn't???? :haha: :wink:

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Now that's a real can of worms!

Part of me understands the reason you posted this, and part of me wishes you never had :shake: .

Now we wait for the black helicopters to swoop in with the storm troopers to count our cans of powder?

Hopefully this 1971 law has been superseded by now!

 

[Semisane]

The law hasn't changed much, but the forms are new (the one Zonie referred to is obsolete).

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr;sid=c1fa442c5271ec117dd98666137d627b;rgn=div5;view=text;node=27%3A3.0.1.3.5;idno=27;cc=ecfr

Think "group purchase".

 

[biliff]

FWIW, the following is from the BATFE webpage FAQ sheet:
6. May a person who does not hold a Federal explosives license or permit
purchase black powder?
Yes, there is a statutory exemption for commercially manufactured black powder
that is purchased in quantities of 50 pounds or less and is intended solely for
sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms as defined in 18
U.S.C. 921 (a)(16), or antique devices as exempted from the term “destructive
devices” in 18 U.S.C. 921 (a)(4).
[18 U.S.C. 845(a)(5); 27 CFR 555.141(b)]

Which is why places like Powder Inc. have you fill out a form saying your purchase is for sporting/recreational purposes and you don't intend to resell.

The link Semisane provided lists it under Exemptions:
b) Black powder. Except for the provisions applicable to persons required to be licensed under subpart D, this part does not apply with respect to commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to exceed 50 pounds, percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers, if the black powder is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms, as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16) or antique devices, as exempted from the term “destructive devices” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(4).


I'm assuming the limit got raised from 5 to 50 lbs sometime between 1971 and now. I'll let somebody else research that one.

 

[Tsegoweleh]

However....,
Your local laws may be different. While it is federally legal for me to recieve 50 lbs of BP, I am only allowed to STORE 5 lbs without a permit and a certified "powder Magazine" :nono:
We routinly buy 25 + plounds of powder and then distribute it among our club.

 

[Zonie]

Thanks for the information.

I figured that the law must have changed because the dealers wouldn't be shipping quantities larger than 5 pounds if the form was still needed.

At least one stupid Federal law was revised to something more senseable. :thumbsup:

 

[pmwest]

As far as I know, the current Federal regulations are published in ATF Publication 5400.7 dated November 2007. Less than 50 lbs for sporting purpose exempts you from most of the regs for storage and handling. State and local laws could be more restrictive. Sellers are subject to permits, record keeping and inspections if involved in interstate transactions or shipping (receiving) by common carrier but are also exempt from other regs for quantities less than 50 lbs. Most gun shops do not sell enough to justify the permit fee and the hassle of record keeping and visits from ATF to check records and quantities so if you know of a shop that does sell black powder, be a good sport and go buy a few cans.

 

[mykeal]

Most gun shops do not sell enough to justify the permit fee and the hassle of record keeping and visits from ATF to check records and quantities

??? Most gun shops are already subject to permit fees, record keeping, storage requirements and inspection requirements for their gun inventory. Why would black powder be a burden to someone who already has the procedures, processes and facilities in place?

 

[Len Graves]

Mykeal I think there are more and different laws (rules) concerning black powder. Also there may be insurance issues involved. I know two of the gun shops in Genesee co. have stopped handling it, and still handle smokeless. I don't really know the specifics. Len

 

[Otter]

??? Most gun shops are already subject to permit fees, record keeping, storage requirements and inspection requirements for their gun inventory. Why would black powder be a burden to someone who already has the procedures, processes and facilities in place?

I do not know the exact additional rules and regs that apply to those who sell or would like to sell black powder, but -
Black powder is classified as an "explosive" and therefore is subject to an entirely different set of rules in regards to on premises storage when compared to smokeless powder and BP substitutes. The BP must be stored a specific distance from the main part of the store/gunshop ("big box" type stores, such as Cabela's, Sportsmans Warehouse, Bass Pro Shop & etc, or a small gunshop). It also has to be stored remotely or in an engineered "bunker" per detailed specs from the ATF. There are also additional "fees and licensing" involved to store an "explosive". It's no wonder it is becoming more and more difficult to find BP at the retail level without ordering larger quantities directly from a BP distributor. I wouldn't carry it either.

 

[pmwest]

According to the ATF publication, the permit is only for explosives. Firearms and propellants are a separate issue (and fee). The required record keeping is only for explosive. All of this is extra work and expense for the store just to sell black powder. Any retailer, no matter what size, is exempt from special storage requirements if they have less than 50 lbs on site. It must be kept in a powder magazine, basically a metal box, so you will not find it on display. In the store that I deal with, the ATF inspector did asked the store owner to relocate the powder magazine because people kept putting the ash try on top of it.

 

[Tinker2]

Another thing the shops must consider is that anyone can buy black powder at wholesale and the public doesn’t have the pay the special permit to get it wholesale.

To me, it was backdoor gun control.



Tinker2