Half-stock Hawken build?

[GANGGREEN]

I sent off a fairly nice piece of wood to Jim Kibler to have one of his new southern mountain rifle kits built. He was kind enough to ship my scraps back and I have enough left for a half-stock rifle. I thought I might eek out a full-stock with a 36" barrel, but it doesn't look like it's going to happen.

I'm curious about a potential build though. I'd like to try to keep the build at least somewhat HC, but I'm leaning towards a Hawken and definitely want a flintlock. I'd also really like to keep the weight down and I know that Hawkens tend to be large bores and large barrels that are heavy.

I don't want to get into another half-stock/flintlock argument, but were there Hawken/Leman style rifles that were built in smaller calibers (say a .45 for instance) and were they ever built in a more dainty style so that they might weigh 7 pounds or less? As I get older, I just find that I have less and less interest in hauling a 9 pound rifle all over the mountain.

Conversely, if a Hawken isn't the right style for what I have in mind, does anyone else have another suggestion for a flintlock half-stock that might fit the bill? Like I said before, it doesn't have to be 100% HC, but all other things being equal, I'd like to try to keep it close to the original style if possible.

Here's the wood that I'll use.....

 

[necchi]

The Ohio Vincent,, a percussion but that's not critical if like you say PC isn't a huge concern. http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/616/1/VINCENT-OHIO-PERC-PARTS-LIST

 

[GANGGREEN]

I had considered the Vincent, it seems very dainty. That said, it seems like they may have been even more unlikely in flint than the plains style rifles would have been. Like I said before, I'm not married to total HC, but I'd like it to be plausible.

 

[GANGGREEN]

I also have a follow-up question regarding the barrels. Because I'll use a straight barrel and presume it might be a bit barrel-heavy with a 36" barrel, and since I'd like to keep the cost reasonable and avoid custom barrel jobs, do Colerain or Green Mountain offer their standard straight barrels in any lengths other than 36 or 42 (I'm thinking maybe 32")?

 

[MSW]

i kinda like the Ohio Vincent ... sounds like a good plan...

 

[gunmaker43]

How bout an English 1/2 stock game/stalking rifle, plenty of flintlocks in those. Google'll show you lots, be sure to say flintlock, as they still make 'em in C.F.
The great Nez Perce chief Joseph carried a .45 leman with a 24" bbl. cut-down I don't know..
Track wolf will cut & breech/crown a bbl. for a shorter, handy rifle.
This is a .54 English type 26" OTR bbl. cap, but flint is samo....Go for it...Tom

 

[GANGGREEN]

What's the underrib on that Tom?

 

[galamb]

Sam Hawken build a number of rifles such as you are looking for.

They were called Local, Turkey, or Squirrel rifles.

They were smaller caliber (generally 42 cal or lower). They had a single barrel key, often with a poured pewter forend and often an Ohio style trigger guard (but that varied a bit).

Here is a few pics of 36 and 38 caliber models - I have scaled a couple (hence all the notes) and built one in 38 cal myself.

 

[GANGGREEN]

Now we're talking. Thanks for posting that Graham. Can I ask what the resource that you've posted photos of is from?

 

[gunmaker43]

Rib is maple off top of bbl. inlet. 4 lugs soldered to bbl. and pinned with 1/16" music wire, plus 5th lug for sling swivel. Slight taper from rear pipe to muzzle, 1/8" or so. ...Tom

 

[galamb]

Now we're talking. Thanks for posting that Graham. Can I ask what the resource that you've posted photos of is from?

That would be my "scratched together" collection

The two pics at the top with all the lines/notes are of the same rifle that was sold by Julia's a few years back.

It was a 36 cal with a 32 3/4" straight barrel (didn't list the ATF measurement).

I used it as a pattern for one that I built using a 30" 38 cal tapered barrel (7/8" tapered to 3/4").

The one picture of the Dieckmann rifle came from an NRA presentation. Dieckmann lived north of St. Louis and had Sam build him two rifles. One rifle was a 30" barreled 38 cal (where I took my caliber/barrel length from) - this pic was of a 40 cal

The Dieckmann rifles had very short forend's - both were about 12" measured from the join between the breech plug/barrel and the front of the forend cap - and when examined/shot they were noted to be "near perfectly sighted for 75 yards".

The last rifle is part of the Gordon Collection. Here is the actual description

"Original S. Hawken St. Louis marked 1/2 stock percussion Plains Rifle, .36 cal., medium weight octagon barrel, measuring 34", 50" overall, brass mounts, scroll trigger guard, double set triggers, single barrel key;formerly James Gordon collection and pictured in "Great Gun Makers For The Early West, Volume III, page 393. "

There is also a couple of S. Hawken "Squirrel rifles" in the possession of the Cody Museum.

I was/am fascinated with these rifles and have scaled just about all of the ones that I had enough info/pics to make it possible.

Here is the last one from my above post - the Gordon rifle, scaled right out (this is what I do before making a paper pattern if I plan to build)

 

[GANGGREEN]

Thanks guys, this is just great information. I'm especially interested in these scaled down Hawkens. I'm not sure where you find such a thing as a tapered barrel for such and have to admit to being a bit intimidated by inletting one, but, that's how it goes. What about a lock, particularly if I went flintlock?

 

[galamb]

I got my scaled down taper from Charlie Burton/FCI barrels.

You just give him all your specs and he cranks one out for you.

I specified a 32" tapered 7/8" (breech) to 3/4" (muzzle) in 38 cal with .010" round bottomed rifling in 1:48 twist without a breech plug but tapped for 5/8"-18. His prices have gone up a little in the last year or so, but I'm thinking I paid 180 bucks, plus shipping and it took about 10 months to get the barrel.

Inletting a taper is a hair more work than a straight but less work than a swamped barrel.

I used one of Pete Allan's Hawken Squirrel breech (sold by Track)

The plug was 15/16" but I can be filed down to match the barrel.

In the case of a flint I would NOT used a hooked Hawken flint breech, but that's personal. I have seen about a dozen of these "squirrel" rifles and the overwhelming majority (of what I have seen) had a fixed breech.

For a lock Sam favoured either a Goulcher or one of the shop made locks that are quite similar to L&R's Plains Warranted.

If I was building one in flint (I wouldn't but) I am fairly certain I would opt for a Chambers Late Ketland, but would round off the tail.

Alternately, L&R's Late English, which I believe is based on the Ashmore, is what most would take to be "correct".

I do prefer the Hawken trigger guard with spur, seen on a few of the rifles. Track sells an iron version and I picked up the same thing in brass at Dixon's (their shop, not one of the Fair vendors).

For triggers I used the Davis double set (built from the kit because I wanted to try doing them myself - done it, not in rush to do that again).

 

[F.G. Ford]

Mr. Lamb,
Great information and dimension references!
The bottom pictures 9 & 10, you would think that you were looking at a Thompson Center rifle of the 1980's.
Thank You!
Happy New Year!
Fred

 

[Vaino]

Have you visited Don Stith's home page?...he offers a Hawken squirrel half stock and looking at the specs and options should give you a good idea for building yours......Fred

 

[GANGGREEN]

Have you visited Don Stith's home page?...he offers a Hawken squirrel half stock and looking at the specs and options should give you a good idea for building yours......Fred

I've been on his page a few times over the years but not since I've been mulling this around, good idea, I'll check him out again.

Graham, thanks again for all of the awesome information. Very helpful.

 

[LaBonte]

I'm with Fred - get one of Don's squirrel rifle kits, they come in a standard as well as Deluxe version. Don's kits come with tapered barrels I'd pay extra for the 1" to 7/8" taper since weight is a concern and with a tapered barrel you can have a longer one than with a straight.
Fred's done at least one of Don's kits so he should be able to tell you more on how much inletting is necessary for the barrel, etc.
As a bonus they are also PC/HC since they are direct copies of originals as are all Don's kits. A little more expensive than some others but you get good materials to start with plus Don's advice...

 

[GANGGREEN]

I'm with Fred - get one of Don's squirrel rifle kits, they come in a standard as well as Deluxe version. Don's kits come with tapered barrels I'd pay extra for the 1" to 7/8" taper since weight is a concern and with a tapered barrel you can have a longer one than with a straight.
Fred's done at least one of Don's kits so he should be able to tell you more on how much inletting is necessary for the barrel, etc.
As a bonus they are also PC/HC since they are direct copies of originals as are all Don's kits. A little more expensive than some others but you get good materials to start with plus Don's advice...

I'll be using my own wood so I don't need a "kit", but it might be worth a call to Don to see if he'd assemble and sell the rest of the parts because as you said, he knows what parts to use. I'm really curious to see what the tapered barrels in different configurations would weigh. I'm getting a Kibler in .40 soon, so I don't really need or want a .36, .38 or .40 (I also have a .36 SMR) so I think I'm most interested in a .45 or a big bore if I could avoid the weight of a traditional Hawken.

 

[LaBonte]

Call Don - you may be able to send your wood to him to have it setup as you did with Jim. Calibers offered are .32-.50.

 

[gunmaker43]

The gun works in Oregon has the old Sharon bbl. gear, Joe Williams will make you a tapered bbl out to 35".
I've dealt with him 30 yr. great guy, And "usually" a short wait less than 2-3 months. You couldn't do better'n Chambers late Ketland. ..Tom