Been lurking awhile, And just received my GPR kit I have read that the GPR is a close copy of original Hawkens with minor differences. What are those differences and what would it take to tweek the GPR kit to be more like the originals. Thanks
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GPR how close to a original
- Thread starter rem700
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AeroncaTAL
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rem700,
JD is correct in that a GPR is not a "Hawken", but is a "Plains" type of rifle. Of all of the low end commercial "Hawken" type rifles (Thompson, CVA, Traditions, Lyman) the GPR is the closest you are going to find to a hawken look a like. With a little work on the kit, you can improve the look of the GPR and bring it even closer to a hawken look. This is what I did with my Great Plains and the following links will take you to the posts on my build. You cannot make a true "Hawken" out of this, but you can make a smart looking good shooting rifle. Don't hesitate to ask questions, there is a lot of good advise out here. :thumbsup:
Scott
Lyman in the rough
Lyman in White
Lyman in Gray
JD is correct in that a GPR is not a "Hawken", but is a "Plains" type of rifle. Of all of the low end commercial "Hawken" type rifles (Thompson, CVA, Traditions, Lyman) the GPR is the closest you are going to find to a hawken look a like. With a little work on the kit, you can improve the look of the GPR and bring it even closer to a hawken look. This is what I did with my Great Plains and the following links will take you to the posts on my build. You cannot make a true "Hawken" out of this, but you can make a smart looking good shooting rifle. Don't hesitate to ask questions, there is a lot of good advise out here. :thumbsup:
Scott
Lyman in the rough
Lyman in White
Lyman in Gray
Rem700: The Lyman GPR is a fine canvas out of which to extract a pretty authentic looking generic plains rifle. Two of the main objections, not hard to correct, are the hump at the upper tang just behind the breech compared to the smoother transition of a Hawken, and the convex line from toe to trigger guard, which is like a pregnant guppy. Some very careful attention to these two lines will get you a more authentic look from a very affordable rifle.
rem700 said:
Its about like the cheap 1/2 stock rifles made by Leman etc in the 1840s-50s but its not shaped as well.
Its basically impossible to make a Hawken out of it without pitching the stock and some other parts. Use it for what it is. If you want a Hawken kit try[url] http://donstith.com/j_s_half_stock.html[/url]
His are about as good as they get. Most Hawken stocks on the market (for example) are just called that by whoever sells them.
Dan
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Cooner 54 is hard at it teaching so we cant ge his info on that here, he'd say "you cant get there from here" more or less. Now you can do as 41Aeronca did with his its as fine a GPR as Ive seen on here in 3 or 4 years. But trying to make a Hawken out of it.. :shake: You got a good start in a few years you can come up with 1,800 to 2,000 and get someone like Don (COONER 54) to make you one. These few that make really close to org's have spent years on just one rifle seeing every little thing we'd miss with months of stareing! Fred :hatsoff:
It will sure look like a Hawken to people that have never seen a Hawken. Dang,I've never seen a Hawken,except in pictures. They sure do look like something a mountain man would pack and if you squint your eyes, they sure are a Hawken. I have one and surely do like it. Like most Italian black powder guns it will surely need some tuning to suit you.....................Bob
Robert Egler
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I'm glad someone else said it first, but I agree. I've never seen a Hawken except in pictures. And the pictures have a lot of variation, it isn't like there was one exact model of Hawken that every true Hawken looked like. From what I can see in pictures, the GPR looks like it could be a Hawken.
I have the Traditions "Hawken", and it doesn't look much like a Hawken, really. But then I didn't buy it to look like a Hawken, so that doesn't matter to me honestly.
It could be that if I saw a GPR and a real Hawken next to each other in person the differences would be obvious, but in pictures the GPR certainly fits within the variations of Hawkens, except perhaps in barrel length.
Not trying to argue with anyone here, just stating an opinion. :surrender:
I have the Traditions "Hawken", and it doesn't look much like a Hawken, really. But then I didn't buy it to look like a Hawken, so that doesn't matter to me honestly.
It could be that if I saw a GPR and a real Hawken next to each other in person the differences would be obvious, but in pictures the GPR certainly fits within the variations of Hawkens, except perhaps in barrel length.
Not trying to argue with anyone here, just stating an opinion. :surrender:
Thanks for all the USEFULL info.
I guess the word Hawken was to strong of a statment forgive the greenhorn. The info and links on how to come closer to the look is what I was after. Is the tiger stripe something that would have been seen on plains type rifles? I have always liked the look and was thinking of trying the copper wire trick, I think I remember reading 25yrs or so perhaps by Sam Fidala about soaking cotton cord in coal oil then wrapping the cord around the stock and setting the cord on fire.
Just a quick back ground, About 25yrs ago I bought if memory serves which it usually doesnt a CVA Hawken type kit in 50ca shot it for awhile and went to cartridge guns. And last year bought a inline and took 2 deer during the muzzle loader season but something was missing so now I have purchased a 54ca GPR kit. I also will be looking for a 36ca full stock squirrel rifle so be expecting ?s on them in the future. Thanks
I guess the word Hawken was to strong of a statment forgive the greenhorn. The info and links on how to come closer to the look is what I was after. Is the tiger stripe something that would have been seen on plains type rifles? I have always liked the look and was thinking of trying the copper wire trick, I think I remember reading 25yrs or so perhaps by Sam Fidala about soaking cotton cord in coal oil then wrapping the cord around the stock and setting the cord on fire.
Just a quick back ground, About 25yrs ago I bought if memory serves which it usually doesnt a CVA Hawken type kit in 50ca shot it for awhile and went to cartridge guns. And last year bought a inline and took 2 deer during the muzzle loader season but something was missing so now I have purchased a 54ca GPR kit. I also will be looking for a 36ca full stock squirrel rifle so be expecting ?s on them in the future. Thanks
rem700,
Suffice it to say, you will like your GPR in .54. Period. Good shooting to ya.
Watch yer topknot . . . Otter
Suffice it to say, you will like your GPR in .54. Period. Good shooting to ya.
Watch yer topknot . . . Otter
Goldhunter
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+1. You will like your GPR. Everyone on here that has one likes it, to include myself.
A shall we say, safer way to stripe is with a fine brush and some black or dark stain and paint the strips on. IIRC, many of the original Leman rifles were done this way. With a good picture as an example and a little attention to detail, it can be done well. There are a couple posts out there about this technique. It looks really nice on a plains rifle. I've tried the burning route on a few ramrods with verying degrees of luck. The burning rope trick was the most disasterous. I'd hate that to happen to a stock I've put many hours of reshaping into. :v
A shall we say, safer way to stripe is with a fine brush and some black or dark stain and paint the strips on. IIRC, many of the original Leman rifles were done this way. With a good picture as an example and a little attention to detail, it can be done well. There are a couple posts out there about this technique. It looks really nice on a plains rifle. I've tried the burning route on a few ramrods with verying degrees of luck. The burning rope trick was the most disasterous. I'd hate that to happen to a stock I've put many hours of reshaping into. :v
The greatest difference between the GPR and an original Hawken is the size and weight of the barrels. Most Hawken "mountain rifles" had very heavy barrels, 1 1/8" or so across the flats at the breech and tapering to maybe one inch at the muzzle by 34" to 38" length. That makes a total rifle weight of 11 to 13 pounds. The GPR barrels of 15/16" by 32" gives a total weight under 10 pounds. The GPR makes a much nicer hunting rifle and is about all most people care to handle in offhand shooting. I think that for our modern day uses the GPR is really a better rifle than is a "true Hawken".
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There's a lot to your practical point CoyoteJoe. Over the years I have owned and hunted extensively with a number of cartridge guns weighing 10+ pounds. Now I'm not a small fry at 6'4" and 220, and I figure I can walk and pack with about anyone. But those rifles were too heavy for lots of long days in a row, much less offhand shooting at the end of any of them.
I'll tell you too, that even a GPR is going to be heavy after many miles and many hours on a hunt. You'll be thinking about slings after only one of those days, especially if it's late and the deer at your feet is far from your truck.
I'm a sincere fan of "Hawkens" and "Plains Rifles" but I leave it up to the individual about what they prefer to carry and be seen with on the PC side. Catch me whupped at the end of a long hunt and tell me my GPR is not authentic enough, and I'm going to have a hard time deciding whether to laugh at them or butt stroke them. Kinda bet that my arms would be too tired for the butt stroke, but I'd still have plenty of wind for loud, long laughter.
Chase the correct details as far as you want in your own rifle and I'll respect you for your effort and the opportunity to learn from you. But point your finger at my rifle while you're talkin, and you better hope my arms are really tired.
I'll tell you too, that even a GPR is going to be heavy after many miles and many hours on a hunt. You'll be thinking about slings after only one of those days, especially if it's late and the deer at your feet is far from your truck.
I'm a sincere fan of "Hawkens" and "Plains Rifles" but I leave it up to the individual about what they prefer to carry and be seen with on the PC side. Catch me whupped at the end of a long hunt and tell me my GPR is not authentic enough, and I'm going to have a hard time deciding whether to laugh at them or butt stroke them. Kinda bet that my arms would be too tired for the butt stroke, but I'd still have plenty of wind for loud, long laughter.
Chase the correct details as far as you want in your own rifle and I'll respect you for your effort and the opportunity to learn from you. But point your finger at my rifle while you're talkin, and you better hope my arms are really tired.
Guest
It makes a great Great Plains Rifle. But, as said by many truthful members here, it ain't a Hawken. It don't matter. There were many makers of plains rifles or mountain rifles, if you prefer the term, than just the Hawken Bros. and associates. Many more makers. Some copied the Hawken product then and are evidently trying to do so now. If it makes meat and you are happy with it, then I am tickled pink for ya. There now, no butt stroke deserved I hope!!! Have fun and keep shooting center. :hatsoff:
Been away from things so long that the GPR wasn't even around in my earlier BP days, so bear with me but: isn't the lock on this rifle a coil spring job? Has anybody reworked one installing leafs? Anybody swamped the barrel with draw filing by hand with decent results? How well does the frizen spark on the flinter and is it hardened all through or just cased?
Thanks,
James
Thanks,
James
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No butt strokes to dish out. The original question was about how close is it to a "real" Hawken, and the answers have been really instructive.
My point is that once a guy buys his rifle, it's time to watch our lips. Criticizing a guy's rifle is just like criticizing his wife. Don't go there. Brag on your own rifle all you want and answer questions, but don't use his rifle to make your points. In the neighborhood I live in it's downright rude to criticize someone's choice, whether in wifes or guns.
My point is that once a guy buys his rifle, it's time to watch our lips. Criticizing a guy's rifle is just like criticizing his wife. Don't go there. Brag on your own rifle all you want and answer questions, but don't use his rifle to make your points. In the neighborhood I live in it's downright rude to criticize someone's choice, whether in wifes or guns.
Guest
Well...to answer the original question: there is not anything you can do to make the GPR look like a Hawken. The silhouette of the rifle is all wrong. Mainly because of the buttplate. The toe kicks way out to far. The small nuances that make a difference would not mean much unless you started all over with a new stock and buttplate. If you go that far you may as well build yourself a Hawken from scratch and buy the right parts to begin anew. But, as I said in the previous post, the GPR is a good shooter for the money and if it makes meat, who should care one way or the otheras as long as the owner is happy with it.
I don't knock or critique a mans rifle unless he asks. Since we were asks then there it is, but this is my opinion only. I have had a bunch of friends over the years that shoot the GPR and they seemed to like them a lot and we get along just fine.
I don't knock or critique a mans rifle unless he asks. Since we were asks then there it is, but this is my opinion only. I have had a bunch of friends over the years that shoot the GPR and they seemed to like them a lot and we get along just fine.
Guest
Rem 700 and others who may be interested...here are few things you can do to any factory rifle that will make it look a lot better.
Roll the sides of the stock into the barrel with no flat along the top of the stock and roll the top of the wrist into the oblique barrel flat instead of the cut square that is found on most factory guns. Also, note the shape of the tang on the Hawken rifles of the later period.
Here are some pix of original Hawkens that you can compare with your rifle to understand what I mean by the silhuoette or butt profile.
My hopes are these photos will help you in your renovations.
Roll the sides of the stock into the barrel with no flat along the top of the stock and roll the top of the wrist into the oblique barrel flat instead of the cut square that is found on most factory guns. Also, note the shape of the tang on the Hawken rifles of the later period.
Here are some pix of original Hawkens that you can compare with your rifle to understand what I mean by the silhuoette or butt profile.
My hopes are these photos will help you in your renovations.
Guest
Rem700,
This question was sure to open up the religious war about what constitutes a "real" Hawken. I've been lurking for a while too, and posted a few questions/comments now and then. This is one question that keeps coming up and keeps getting the same responses, over and over.
In my opinion, the only Hawken is one that was made by the Hawkens or their employees. Period. Everything else is a copy.
Some rifle makers make outstanding copies of individual rifles. Accurate to every detail... Still a copy.
I suggest that you locate the following books that can help you learn more about Hawken and Plains rifles.
1. Hawken Rifles, The Mountain Man's Choice by John D. Baird
2. The Plains Rifle by Charles E. Hanson Jr.
3. The Hawken Rifle: Its Place in History by Charles E. Hanson, Jr
I have all three. The first two will cost you as they are out of print and getting rare. The last book can be purchased from Track of the Wolf, where I got mine. Just so you know, I paid $68.00 for the first on in the list.
Lots of folks will try to tell you that there is a great mystery about Hawken rifles. Nonsense. There is no great mystery. The Hawkens made rifles that individuals wanted. Therefore, every one was different. Just look at the photos on page vi and vii of Baird's book. Every one is different. Also check out the differences between early and late Hawken rifles. Many of the early rifles looked alot like Kentucky rifles, but heavier. The early ones were very plain, no snail and heaven forbid, a cleanout screw. It's right there in the picture on page 22 of Baird's book.
The fact is that of the 2-3 thousand that apparently were made, very few have survived, so no one really knows what most of them looked like. They could have looked just like your GP rifle for all anyone knows. What we have are copies of individual rifles.
The Lyman Great Plains rifle is a good looking rifle and shoots well. It is well made and should provide you with a lifetime of shooting if you treat it well. Who cares what others think of your rifle. Like others said, it's kind of like insulting a guy's wife and it's really getting a bit tiresome.
Not everybody has thousands to spend on a "real" Hawken.
This question was sure to open up the religious war about what constitutes a "real" Hawken. I've been lurking for a while too, and posted a few questions/comments now and then. This is one question that keeps coming up and keeps getting the same responses, over and over.
In my opinion, the only Hawken is one that was made by the Hawkens or their employees. Period. Everything else is a copy.
Some rifle makers make outstanding copies of individual rifles. Accurate to every detail... Still a copy.
I suggest that you locate the following books that can help you learn more about Hawken and Plains rifles.
1. Hawken Rifles, The Mountain Man's Choice by John D. Baird
2. The Plains Rifle by Charles E. Hanson Jr.
3. The Hawken Rifle: Its Place in History by Charles E. Hanson, Jr
I have all three. The first two will cost you as they are out of print and getting rare. The last book can be purchased from Track of the Wolf, where I got mine. Just so you know, I paid $68.00 for the first on in the list.
Lots of folks will try to tell you that there is a great mystery about Hawken rifles. Nonsense. There is no great mystery. The Hawkens made rifles that individuals wanted. Therefore, every one was different. Just look at the photos on page vi and vii of Baird's book. Every one is different. Also check out the differences between early and late Hawken rifles. Many of the early rifles looked alot like Kentucky rifles, but heavier. The early ones were very plain, no snail and heaven forbid, a cleanout screw. It's right there in the picture on page 22 of Baird's book.
The fact is that of the 2-3 thousand that apparently were made, very few have survived, so no one really knows what most of them looked like. They could have looked just like your GP rifle for all anyone knows. What we have are copies of individual rifles.
The Lyman Great Plains rifle is a good looking rifle and shoots well. It is well made and should provide you with a lifetime of shooting if you treat it well. Who cares what others think of your rifle. Like others said, it's kind of like insulting a guy's wife and it's really getting a bit tiresome.
Not everybody has thousands to spend on a "real" Hawken.
Here is an original Hawken for reference! The Uberti Sante Fe Hawken I just got, looks a twin to this rifle!
