Frizzen Hardening

[KHickam]

I have a fowler with a Queen Anne Lock - I've fired thousand rounds or more through it. This weekend it was only firing about 10 percent of the time - no flash just a klatch - sparks appeared week and there are gouges on the frizzen face.

Any one know a smith that does this quickly (it is my only gun) or can give me info on how to do it myself?

Keith

 

[necchi]

well keith, you scroll down a bit on the forum index and post this ? in the gun builders forum and/or do some readin there and you'll get an answer post haste :thumbsup:

 

[LaBonte]

Keith - try this first" regrind the face just enough to remove the gouges - DO NOT polish it mirror smooth - about 120-220 grit at most eill work fine.
If that doesn't work then it probably needs to be re-hardened - Wick Ellerbe should be able to do that and do it right for you if you choose not to do it yourself....

 

[Billnpatti]

The gouges on your frizzen are a clue to what may be the matter. Your flint may be chipped on the edge and not sparking well. Before you spend money re-hardening your frizzen, change your flint to a new one, set it in the cock properly and see if that doesn't cure the problem. You usually don't need to re-harden your frizzen. However, if you do, you can buy a product called Kasenite from Brownells (www.brownells.com) and do it yourself. Before you buy it, be sure that you have, or can get, the materials that you need to do the job. You can look it up on the internet and read about it.

 

[Dphar]

Like LaBonte said.
Most modern frizzens are through hardened.
Though I have had to sole 2 from The Rifle Shoppe that seemed to be cast of some poor sparking alloy like 4140.
Most locks, L&R, Chambers etc have through hardened frizzens made of steel that sparks well.

Dan

 

[paulvallandigham]

Polish the frizzen smooth. Try to see if your lock sparks, now. If not, the frizzen many not be hardened properly.

you can do the hardening yourself, with Casenite. Buy it from Brownells, or some of the other suppliers. You want to hold the frizzen in the jaws of your vise, steel to steel, and heat the front side of the standing frizzen. That is, put the torch to the back, or forward side( Now underside), of the frizzen as it sits in your lock on the gun. The frizzen will slowly redden and then go to orange, and white on the face. The face of the frizzen should be UP, and parallel to the floor.

Pour the casenite onto the face of the frizzen, continuing to heat the frizzen from underneath until the casenite " melts" into the metal of the face. Repeat pouring on more casenite, until it no longer takes any more. With the frizzen hot enough, the carbon will migrate further and further into the metal, until you have a very thick layer of steel that is hardened.


When you can't get the frizzen to take any more casenite, let it cool.( Some recommend dumping the frizzen into water that has been heated to about 120 degrees, to knock off the scale that forms on the frizzen from the hardening process. Otherwise, you may need to use a powered wire brush, or abrasives to remove the scale. Hot water, instead of cold, makes it much less likely that the metal will break from the shock of the temperature change.)

The jaws of the vise will have kept the base and cam of the frizzen cooled, as they act as a heat sink- drawing heat away from parts you don't want hardened.

To protect the hardened upper part of the frizzen from breaking, put the frizzen on a cookie sheet in an oven, and heat it to 375 degrees. Leave the frizzen in the oven at that temperature for an hour. Then turn off the oven and let the sheet and frizzen cool to room temperature. That should temper the frizzen so it will be both hard, and strong- NOT BRITTLE.

I am suspecting that the Angle of Impact of your flint has never been correct, at 55-60 Degrees, measuring along the top of the bottom jaw, to the point of impact on the face. The center point of your protractor is placed at the POI, and the upper arm of your angle, is a line from the center point to the top, rear point on the face of the frizzen. You should notice that the top of the face curves backwards.

Your flint should also be striking the face at between 60 and 66% of the distance UP from the bottom of the frizzen. You need to strike that high to get the frizzen to flip open correctly, and timely, so that the frizzen gets out of the way of your sparks being thrown- not dribbled down-- into the pan. The flint should scrape the face of the frizzen, NOT GOUGE IT.

IF you are getting gouges across the face of the frizzen, or chatter marks( think an old fashioned washboard), you need to correct those problems, whether the frizzen is hardened or not. I can walk you through that, if you send me a PT.

 

[44-henry]

If you are still having problems you can send it to me and I'll pack harden it the next time I do a run of parts (which will be in a week or two). It probably is some grade of tool steel, but the pack hardening will prevent any decarb that you might get with other methods and a post temp at 400 will give you a long wearing surface. You can PM me if you want to go this route.

 

[Maverick3855]

You may have too stiff of a frizzen spring.
Especially if it's chewing up flints and frizzen face.
I reheat all my frizzen springs.
Heat to red then quench and then re-polish the spring and gently heat until it becomes a "straw" color.
It will still spring but wont be as stiff.
You can take your spring off and snap your lock and see if it throws sparks without a spring.
Most actually spark better with no frizzen spring at all, You need it to keep it closed though.
If it sparks well with the spring removed it is likely too stiff.
The only place you really want a stiff spring is on your mainspring.
Stiff frizzen springs just eat flints and tear up your frizzen face like you described.

 

[Vaino]

When referring to tempering a frizzen spring to a "straw" color, did you really mean the frizzen itself because "straw" would be the correct color for tempering the frizzen? Springs need to be tempered or drawn down to a grayish blue....a "straw" colored, tempered spring is very likely to break.....Fred

 

[LRB]

Common spring steel needs a temper in the range of 625°, to 700°. A straw color usually indicates about 375° to 425°, depending on how one sees color, and leaves the steel a tad hard, even for a knife blade. Molten lead is a fine heat treat for most springs, especially if you have a controlled temp lead pot so that the spring strength can be varied some if needed.

 

[Maverick3855]

When referring to tempering a frizzen spring to a "straw" color, did you really mean the frizzen itself because "straw" would be the correct color for tempering the frizzen? Springs need to be tempered or drawn down to a grayish blue....a "straw" colored, tempered spring is very likely to break.....Fred

No,
I am referring to the spring.
I took this from an article in Muzzleoader magazine back in the 80's and have used it on all my flinters.
It does in my experience make the springs "softer" it specifically stated that if it went to blue to reheat and quench and start over.
I have the springs on my Tennessee rifles heated this way and they have worked very well for over 20 years and countless shots.
I should have added that I also put the spring in the oven at 400 degrees for an hour or so and then turn the oven off and let it cool slowly.
Maybe I've been doing it wrong but I have no problems as of yet treating springs this way.

 

[Vaino]

A spring temper is when the color is a grayish blue....a straw color denotes a very hard RC 60-62 approx. depending which steel is used and 60-62 RC isn't a hardness that you want in a spring. I've been hardening steel for a long time and in fact had to be the tool hardener for 9 mos. during my tool and diemaker apprenticeship. Nobody that I know of and none of the heat treating references recommend tempering a spring to a "straw" color if the spring was hardened properly. You've been very "lucky" if indeed you're actually tempering springs to a "straw" color....Fred

 

[rich pierce]

Yeehaw- you are one lucky man to get away with bending hard steel drawn just to straw temper.

 

[LRB]

Double, and triple dittoes to Freds post. IF, and I repeat, IF you got the frizzen spring acually as hard as it should be, and tempered to straw color, it would break at that temper, if pushed any real distance. A frizzen spring does not move a great distance, so that's going for you. For some locks, simple cold rolled steel without any heat treat at all might work to an acceptable level. All steel has a flex range, HT'ed, or not. The spring may be of a lower carbon content than normally encountered, and at just a red heat, you may not have gotten it fully hard to begin with. There are a few more possibilities here, but in general, using high carbon steel, you will not get a spring from your heat treat. Not one that will travel any appreciable distance without breaking anyway. If you can, you can go down in history, as one who has defied the laws of physics, and suceeded.

 

[Maverick3855]

If you can, you can go down in history, as one who has defied the laws of physics, and suceeded.

I apparently am the one as this has worked on at least 30 rifles.
I am quickly beginning to remember why I have been registered here since 04 and quit posting 5 years ago.
I'll leave it to you omnipotent ones.
I clearly don't know anything so I'll leave this to the God's such as yourself.
I will not take up any more of your time with my inane ramblings.
You all have fun! :surrender:
Bye!

 

[necchi]

I don't profess to have knowledge of metals or forge, matter of fact I know my ignorance of the subject, but have a few "go too" friends with the skills when I need work done,,,a little story;

There is a local club of blacksmithing, they gather at a different mans forge each month to share experiance and watch a demonstrated technique. The topic of color always comes up when you visit with one of these guy's, my friend Steve, who's just beginning in the trade as a hobbyist, made the comment one time, that he'd been to several meeting's/demonstrations before he actually "saw" the straw color. He noted that because of the group gathered around, or his position in the light he previously just hadn't seen it.
It must have been something special when he finally saw the true color, cause he talked about knowing colors for 20 minutes.

("Ya,Ya,Steve,,here, here's a bag of charcoal as a gift,,,can ya bend this?, so it's shaped like this?, will ya?")

It's a great hobby and a great skilled trade, but one I'm content with leaving for others to master.

 

[J.D.]

One must have decent light and fairly well polished surfaces to see tempering colors, otherwise they aren't hard to see.

IMHO 400 degrees should be fairly close for springs made of 5160, though I think 450 is the recommended tempering temp. The same may be true for something approaching 1060, but I haven't used these steels for spring stock, so the recommended temp may be off a bit.


IMHO, a red heat is not quite to 1550 degrees, which is the recommended hardening temp for spring steel. Maverick may not be reaching optimum temp for hardening, so such a light temper may work.

God bless

 

[rich pierce]

If you can, you can go down in history, as one who has defied the laws of physics, and suceeded.

I apparently am the one as this has worked on at least 30 rifles.
I am quickly beginning to remember why I have been registered here since 04 and quit posting 5 years ago.
I'll leave it to you omnipotent ones.
I clearly don't know anything so I'll leave this to the God's such as yourself.
I will not take up any more of your time with my inane ramblings.
You all have fun! :surrender:
Bye!

Wow, I didn't think we were doing more than sharing what is common, published consensus on the approximate temperature at which springs shouold be tempered. We had a couple choices- decide that everything we've experienced and read was wrong, and that you are correct that straw is the right color for tempering springs, or point out that this approach would be extremely risky.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The most serious limitation of using the internet, or phone to communicate information, is that its a lousy vehicle to carry Visual Information. Even photos don't do well. What you see as " Yellow" may not be the same as others see.

If you were to instead spend a couple of hours at either of your shops, working together in the same light conditions, using the same equipment, THEN you might understand what each is talking about. This is the principal reason that Blacksmithing has always been an Apprentice-style educational experience. You can't learn it from books, and reading posts on the Internet.

You seem to have a great big chip on your shoulder. I don't understand why. Never have understood people who also carry around that weight.

Its sad that you choose to leave the forum, rather than simply explore the reason for the difference in experiences with men who obviously have been working steel for many years.

I always learn something new when I explore my different experience. Many years ago, I wanted to be a knife maker. I bought a lot of used equipment, made a couple of knives, and then got on with my careers. I have always kept my interest in knife making, and still read and study the few good books that have been written about the topic. I still send private messages to members here to discuss tempering and hardening colors, and match their information to my own experiences, even if years have past since I actively was forging steel.

But, you apparently left this forum 5 years ago, also, so this is what you do when someone questions you about something you post. We wish you well, and hope you don't wait another 5 years to come back and visit us. :surrender: :thumbsup:

 

[LRB]

Well said Paul, and I would like to join you in inviting him back. I am curious as to the 30 rifles he has done this with. Not really the guns, but whose locks are in them, and what the steel really is in these frizzen springs. Maverick is certainly convinced of his success with his proceedure, but it defies logic, and well proven metallurgy. If he had merely re-tempered the springs at 400°, it should have had no effect. Good, bad, or indifferent. Period. If, as JD said, they may have been under hardened, that could be a different matter. There are many factors that may be in play. Kitchen ranges are notoriously inaccurate in temp. Our old one was a hundred degrees hotter than it's dial setting, but that doesn't explain the straw color Maverick was getting. And, as I said, a frizzen spring does not move very far. Not like a main spring at all. Assuming Maverick is being truthful, I just don't have an answer, and I would like to know.