??? flint vs percussion

[Stobey]

Hello everyone!
I am new here and am thinking of trying the flint route. I have been shooting percussion for about 40 years off and on so I know a bit about black powder. I have 2 questions:
1. After the learning curve, are flinters as reliable as percussions? By that I mean ignition.

2. What is the cost and life expectancy of GOOD flints?

Thanks

Steve

 

[Many Klatch]

Well, our experience is at the opposite ends. I have been shooting Flinters for about 30 years. I find that my flint guns will go off when cap guns are having problems at a shoot. In my personal opinion, flints are at least as reliable as cap guns. Flints are a little more finicky but once their quirks become known they become second nature when loading. The nice thing about flints as opposed to cap guns is that it is a lot easier to clean out a touch hole after a misfire than it is with a cap gun.

I get anywhere from 20 to 80 shots per flint. Flints are natural items that are hand made so they can vary wildly. Sometimes I get one that lasts and lasts and sometimes I get one that falls apart on the first shot. It is all part of the game.

I bought a couple of bags of 100 flints years ago so I don't know what the current cost is. I think that they are running close to $1 each. Most flints are made in Europe and the cost of sending rocks over the Atlantic by air and the difference in the value of the dollar versus the pound or the Euro add to the cost of the flints.

Many Klatch

 

[Cowboy2]

The learning curve really isn't very steep. I'll leave it to others to address flint life, only saying that the much maligned cut stones work better and last longer than the black flints in my GPR.
I'm going to respectfully disagree with Many Klatch (whom I sure has a lot more experience than I do shooting muzzleloaders)over reliability- but people switched from flint percussion for a reason.

 

[David W.]

The most reliable part(s) of a flintlock is a good frizzen, properly placed touch hole, good flint, and mainspring tension. As far as speed of ignition, the difference between well tuned flinter, and percussion isn't noticeable to most people.

My biggest problem was overcoming flinch syndrome.

There is a learning curve, but a percussion rifle can also miss fire in wet weather.

 

[wattlebuster]

Regardless of the wheather I prefer flint over a percussion any day. Just more fun to shoot IMHO. I average 25 to 100 shots out of a flint as each one is different. Try a good built flintlock out for yourself and I'll wager moms best skillet you'll never look back. :hatsoff:

 

[satwel]

IMHO based on casual observation at shooting matches: I see more percussion shooters struggle to get a loaded rifle to fire than flintlock shooters. I'm not sure why that is. Perhaps it's the length of the flash channel on a percussion gun. I shoot flintlocks and once I learned the proper loading techniques and how to dress and adjust the flint, I can typically shoot two or three matches in a row without a single flash in the pan or klatch.
Now I am talking about shooting on the line under ideal weather conditions. I don't have any experience shooting either flint or percussion in the field in bad weather.
With the price of percussion caps skyrocketing, I have to believe flints are cheaper than percussion caps. I'm paying almost $.10 a piece for the winged musket caps I need for my 1863 Sharps.

 

[Lonegun1894]

Count me as anothe vote for flint over caps. Cost last time I bought was just shy of a dollar each, but then you add shipping and it starts adding up. I am currently trying to learn to knap my own flints, but am not to the point of relaibly being able to make a good one yet. Once I get there, my flints will be free. I have had flints shatter withing the first 5 shots, and that will frustrate you. But on the other hand, I have gotten about 120-130 shots off of one flint also. So it varies widely and is just luck of the draw. I would vote for a flinter myself, and I don't see you having any issues since the vast majority of your experience with caplocks will carry over and help you solve any issues you will come across when you're transitioning to your flinter. Just get the best lock you can the first time around, because a bad one will drive you insane and make you go back to your caplocks, while a good one will be a pure pleasure.

 

[ebiggs1]

The question isn't, are flintlocks better or worse than percussion. They are different. :hmm:
But the myth that floats around here that a flintlock is faster and quicker to shoot is baloney. :shocked2:
Yes, in every facet cap locks are more advanced, more reliable, and quicker as you can tell from the fact nobody but a few old Joe's like on this forum still try to use them. Just like the flintlock was an improvement over the matchlock. Things change for the better. :grin:
As to the matter of flints, I see them as unpredictable. But there is an average that can be seen.
The average Black English shoots 30 to 50 times. A few go well past that and a very few don't shoot 10 times. I have nothing good to say about sawn agate and I recommend staying away from them. :td:
As to learning curve, it depends on the gun as much as anything. For instance, if you have a Lyman GPR straight from the box the curve will be long. If you have a new style TC it will be rather short. On top of that each gun has it's quirks of what it seems to do best.
All and all the fun factor with flintlocks is the greatest reward.
Oh and, BTW, welcome to the forum. :hatsoff:

 

[Spikebuck]

I am relatively new to flinters (about a year) with 12 years experience with percussions, so here is my view as a relative newcomer to shooting flint guns.

Regarding reliability of ignition: I am rather amazed at the reliability of a flinter, once you have done the work to establish the way the particular lock on the gun needs to be set up to get a good, consistent spark. On any good percussion gun, it doesn't take any work to establish that.

I am a hunter...not a target shooter. So my guns are going into the field under all kinds of conditions. Last year I carried my 20 GA flint fowler around in a heavy, wet snow "storm" for small game. I kept the gun held upside down with the lock tucked under my armpit. When I finally got a shot at a squirrel that was as stupid as I was for being out in the heavy snow, it went off no problem at all. Did the same thing hunting deer with a caplock and at the end of the evening hunt I wanted to discharge it back at the truck and all I got was a "click."

Now, I'm not saying the flinter is always more reliable, but just giving a couple of examples that show that a flinter can be at least as reliable under bad conditions. I've generally had no problems with percussion guns going off, but I think a misfire now and then happens with either type even when one is trying to be as careful as possible.

Being a long-time bowhunter I kind of think of flinters as the "longbow" of firearms because I think it takes a bit more work to be effective. Between getting a flinter set up properly and learning to follow-through (not flinch) takes more work, but once you have that down, it's every bit as effective in the hands of a skilled shooter/hunter as the recurve (percussion).

I know I'm glad I've added the flinter to my shooting/hunting. I'm not abandoning percussion, but just adding another element of challenge and excitement with flinters.

 

[MSW]

I'll jump in with my two cents worth - take it as you will...

first, welcome to the forum - this is, in my opinion, the best forum on the 'web,' although there are others.

i've owned flintlocks for thirty odd years, and most flintlocks are probably as reliable as most caplocks, except in foul weather, where cap has the advantage. it does take a bit of 'learning curve' to figure out a flintlock- care and feeding sort of stuff. this is also true for caplocks, but they're not (i think, anyway) as complex as flint.

why did the percussion cap edge out flint? ... they are easier to shoot, and they work better in bad weather, and they take less training so, over time, caps won out. then the fixed cartridge was developed (with what really amounts to a self contained cap - the primer) and both flint and cap lost out to the next innovation.

while i will grant you that caps are getting expensive, if you look at what a box of factory loaded centerfire rifle ammo costs ...

:cursing:

wow- shooting muzzle loaders isn't so bad after all ... and when you're loading from the front, it's a much more contemplative sort of thing.

I would encourage you to give flint a try, since i find it more rewarding. it might or might not work for you, but there is (again, just my opinion) something sort of magic about flint.

make good smoke!

 

[Stobey]

I want to thank all you folks for the input and advice!

I have been navigating this forum for a couple of weeks and have found it to be enjoyable and informative.

Steve

 

[hanshi]

Percussion is a real improvement over the flint especially for beginners. Once you learn to feed and work a flint lock you'll find them about as reliable as any caplock.

I prefer flintlocks as they are more fun than caplocks and cheaper to shoot. With care, they work fine even in rainy weather. Flints usually cost from around $1.25 to $2.25 depending on size. Good flints can last anywhere from 30/40 shots to over 100.

 

[nchawkeye]

My first muzzleloader was bought in 1977 from Bob Watts in Stone Mt, GA...He had built it a few years earlier and it didn't quite fit the fellow, it did me...

It had a large Siler flintlock on her, he gave me about 10 minutes of instructions and that's all I got...I picked up the rest on the way...

Never had any problems, actually have never owned a percussion gun or a factory built muzzleloader...For 10 years that was my hunting rifle for squirrels, deer and turkey...The first muzzleloading shoot I went to I won and I was competing aginst fellows with percussions as well...

If a fellow knows how to operate a flintlock they are very reliable...

It's really very simple...

1) Real black powder...
2) A well made gun...
3) A sharp, black English flint...
4) Dry powder...
5) Clean barrel and open touch hole...

And most importantly...Powder BEFORE ball...

 

[Cowboy2]

Look, tradition is great. In fact, its usually pretty awesome. But you guys have got to be joking about a flintlock being as/more reliable than a percussion rifle in the hands of the average user. They changed over to them for a reason. It was a time and place in this country when having a gun that worked, and worked mighty damn well, was the difference between life and death, be it for a man or himself and his family. Guns weren't cheap, and money wasn't growing on trees any more than it is today. They went to percussion caps because they worked better, period.
Hey, I like shooting my flintlock, but just because I think its a hoot, that doesn't mean I think its somehow technologically superior to the machine that replaced it. Those people chose the new system over the old for a reason.
I appreciate that everyone likes their favorite toys, but when a man asks "what works best", the proper answer is the one that works best, not what your favorite gun is, and how if you spend five years mastering it, it'll be as good as the other gun.

 

[fyrfyter43]

Quite often, "new and improved" isn't.

 

[Lonegun1894]

It's all in the shooter, and not in the gun. If a shooter is willing to learn to use his weapon, as opposed to being able to pick it up and use it with a minimum of training, then the flinter is just as good as the caplock. Personally, I think it has advantages and disadvantages also, but it is all personal preference and a matter of how dedicated the shooter is. Once learned, the flinter is the superior weapon, but if I was going to just hand someone with minimal training one and expect them to make it work, then I would rather hand them a caplock.

As to the new and improved argument, just because it is new doesn't make it improved. There is a reason i carried flint and steel when I was in the military (still do in fact) when most of the guys were carrying matches or a lighter. Mine never failed, theirs did, not frequently, but still did on occasion. This isn't the only thing I tend to stick with the old ways with, but it is one of many. Look at it this way, the simpler the technology, the less there is that can go wrong with it, and I like my tools to be reliable under any conditions. Now I'm not suggesting replacing modern guns with a bunch of flinters, but I do think that everyone should have a good flinter or two.

 

[sleeperNY]

I don't think anyone is saying that a flintlock is better than a percussion rifle. The question wasn't witch was better anyways, but rather are they as reliable. The answer is yes they can be. I can't see the cost of shooting one over the other as a reason why a flintlock would be chosen, there just isn't that much difference. I shoot a flintlock 99% of the time because I get the most enjoyment from it. We don't have to live by them anymore so the few times reliability could be a question and a percussion would be better makes no difference.
I say to SteveT, just try it and I bet you will like it.

Jim

 

[Dean2]

I don't think anyone is saying that a flintlock is better than a percussion rifle. The question wasn't witch was better anyways, but rather are they as reliable. The answer is yes they can be. I can't see the cost of shooting one over the other as a reason why a flintlock would be chosen, there just isn't that much difference. I shoot a flintlock 99% of the time because I get the most enjoyment from it. We don't have to live by them anymore so the few times reliability could be a question and a percussion would be better makes no difference.
I say to SteveT, just try it and I bet you will like it.

Jim

Probably the most cogent discourse on this question I have seen in a long time. Well done.

If it is all about reliable and efficient hunting, stick with a centre fire. Muzzle loaders are for the fun and challenge and you will find the flintlock a real hoot. Buy one and enjoy, they are addictive.

 

[No Deer]

A friend once made the analogy of the difference between a caplock and a flintlock is like the the difference between driving a sports car with an automatic transmission and one with a manual transmission. Both fun, but the manual is more fun.

 

[MJMarkey]

I've never shot caps. But I shoot with a guy that does. As far as reliability my flintlock matches his caplock shot for shot.

Cost of flints is about $1.75 ea. less in quantities. But a single flint will shoot an average of 30-40 shots and then can be resharpened and used again till it's too small to be held in the cock. It's a lot of shots, I've never counted exactly. But far cheaper on average than percussion caps.

A vent liner like White Lightening is a good thing. But a good lock like one of Chambers' or one of the other premium lock will make your rifle perform as well as a caplock. Most of the guys in my club shoot flintlocks and most are shooting custom rifles with premium locks with excellent results.

Production rifles will work fine especially when new. Problems can happen when the frizzen wears and sparking ability drops off. The frizzen hardening on some production rifles is only on the surface once worn off they won't spark. This can be fixed either by re-hardening or re-soleing the frizzen.

Hope some of this helps. But if you go flintlock you'll never go caplock again.