Finally getting somewhere with 3f load development

[renegadehunter]

Got in some shooting this Sunday. Been playing around with different patch lubes and trying to get a 3f load to shoot well. My normal 2f load has been 75 grains with a .015" patch (compressed), with a damp Hoppes BP lube for target shooting or muzzleloader shoots and a store bought wonderlube patch for hunting. Both yield decent groups, with the darn store bought wonderlube patches being the best.
Since 75 grains of 2f worked pretty well, I figured I'd start with 60 grains of 3f and thought I'd see similar accuracy from it. Tried Hoppes, store bought wonderlube patches, olive oil, mink oil, and 5:1 Castor oil / Denatured alcohol "dry" patches. At 50 yards the best groups were CO/DA patches and olive oil, about 3" to 4" groups from sandbags. I've tried 65, 70, 75 grains of 3f with the above lubes. At 75 grains all groups started showing a slight improvement. Sunday I brought my normal .015" patches as well as some new .018" patches to try. Lubed both types with mink oil and made up some 6:1 CO/DA lube to try. A couple of years ago I tried some 8:1 and they burnt up and were really tough to load, thus the reason I started at 5:1 and figured I'd work from there. I've been looking forward to trying 6:1 from Dutch's findings that less slick is better. I also thought I'd try the .015 mink patches with my normal load of 75 grains 2f just to see what they'd do and if it was more of a 3f issue I was fighting. Mink oil is applied by rubbing one side of the patch around the tin and then rubbed in with thumbs...perhaps too much though. My results have me wanting to try applying less the next time to see what happens. All were shot swabbing between shots. I've become addicted to trying to find a combo that will shoot tiny groups and have postponed trying to find a no-swabbing lube until this "finding tiny groups" addiction has ran its course.

First target is the 2f mink.

Next is an .018" mink patch with 62 grains of 3f. All shots felt good, so not sure if the one out of the group was me or a flyer...but I'm thinking a flyer as it is what I've been seeing since starting 3f development.

This next one is the target I actually shot first. I had decided to try 80 grains of 3f since 75 grains previously had shown an improvement. It is shot with an .018" patch with 6:1 CO/DA. Not too bad, and have to wonder if my elevation POA changed slightly between shots to give the two separate groups. I try to be careful, but a .029" size front sight looks pretty large at 50 yards. I did not count the foul shot in the group.

And the last one. This is 80 grains of 3f with a .015" patch with 6:1 CO/DA. I ran out of time and it is only 3 shots, but it looked pretty darn good to me. The above 62 grain mink target would look the same though without the fourth shot out of the main group. I did tweak the rear sight to try to correct windage before shooting this one and I went too far.

It seems strange to me that I had to go clear up to 80 grains of 3f to start seeing better groups since it does pretty good at 75 grains of 2f. Honestly though, when I started into shooting muzzleloaders I used 70 grains of 2f since that's what a friend was using in his .54 and recommended. I didn't get very good groups with that and finally tried 75 grains, and the groups tightened up so much that I just simply stopped there. Now I want to try going up with the 2f loads to see if I stopped too soon. I've read that most guns have a light plinking load and then a heavier "hunting" load, so perhaps I should also try some 50 grain or so charges to see what I get.
Next time to the range I'll try the 6:1 patches again along with some 7:1, and perhaps some olive oil patches again with the hotter 3f load.
Geez it is fun playing around with different combos on these things.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Good results.
Is it 54? If so I would be tipping more powder in it!
The way it's going you might have a tack driver!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Yeah I'd have to agree, don't stop at 80, try 85 and 90 just to be sure, although Mike Beliveau reports that when getting up around 90 grains, 3Fg in .54 seems to diminish on MV increases, while 2Fg continues a steady increase..., so you might also try 80-90 grains of 2Fg too....

LD

 

[renegadehunter]

Will do guys, perhaps I've just been under feeding it all along.

 

[Rifleman1776]

It seems strange to me that I had to go clear up to 80 grains of 3f to start seeing better groups since it does pretty good at 75 grains of 2f.

That is the sort of thing that makes this game both frustrating and interesting. Sometimes there just is no explaining those strange happenings. But, you can continue experimenting. Vary your patch thickness and lubes. Keep shooting.

 

[Walkingeagle]

Just a fyi, my .54 capper loves 90gr Pyro P, in both my TC and GM barrels. Not the same as real bp and not exactly as you were talking, so take with a grain of salt.
Walk

 

[renegadehunter]

Walkingeagle, wow, that's a pretty hot load (to me anyways). I just recently read an old thread about someone else saying their .54 liked 90 grains of 3f too. I'd think that my lightly lube castor oil patches may start to burn up if I get much above where I'm at now. When I try hotter the targets will tell that story I suppose.

 

[drobs]

Another vote for 90gr FFFg. Was using that load w/ my Lyman Great Plains 54 cal percussion rifle last year Christmas and found it to be pretty accurate at 25yds off a rest.

Here's a target from trying to figure out where the gun was shooting. Using a center of mass hold on the center of the target puts them right in there.

Regret to say, I didn't get a chance to shoot the rifle during the rest of 2018. Hopefully 2019 will be different.

 

[Poboy]

Renegade, it's not the volume of your posts....I don't believe in TMI, but, breaking them up into paragraphs DOES make them easier to read.

Good luck with the process, and it looks like you're very close to a load. I agree with going with more, if for no other reason but to certify that your gun prefers less.

 

[Gowacky]

I didn’t see that you confirmed that you are not shooting a 32 but from your loads I suspect you are shooting a 54.

I have a 32 and I’m working on accuracy. I can hit a 4” metal target at 60 yards but just doubt I can beat a 4” spread.

 

[Sparkitoff]

I have several .54 caliber rifles. I was lucky to find a load that all but one will shoot accurately. The one stand-out just has to have 100 grains of FFFg. I didn't want to feed it that much but through lengthy experimentation the accuracy was obvious with this load. Down at 65 grains the accuracy was non-existent. Around 80 grains there was a 5" or more "group". 90 grains shrunk that just a little - maybe 3.5" groups. Went to 100 and they shrunk to 1.5" and tended to make 3-shot "triangles" with one over two or two over one. These are 50-yard groups. See what it wants and provide it.

 

[Gowacky]

Thanks! From this I will learn the importance of searching for the right load instead of thinking it’s just my shooting. I can shoot daily so I should be able to get as good as I’m competent.

Do you have to guard against flinching when you use such a hot load? I expect 90-100 grains of fff delivers a pretty good recoil?

I thought about that when getting the 32. Obviously it’s just a sweet feeling even with a hot load, that being 30 grains of fff.

 

[Rifleman1776]

25 yards tells you nothing. You must develop groups at 50-75 yards to know if your rifle is shooting accurately.

 

[Gowacky]

That’s interesting. So, just don’t waste powder shooting at 20 yds. I’ll take your advice on that. Thanks !

 

[renegadehunter]

Yes, sorry, it's a .54.
I agree about the 25 yard groups...I can get some pretty good groups at that distance out of quite a few different loads, but its amazing how much 50 weeds out the poor combinations.

Poboy, yes I tend to give TMI lol! But I like to try to paint the whole picture so all the folks here with tons more experience can give accurate advice...and then I leave out that it is a .54! I do think I'm pretty close to finding the best combo for my rifle.

 

[Gowacky]

It was back in November when I ordered my Crockett 32 cal. There were considerable frustrations while trying to get prepared to reenter muzzleloading from where all I had to order from (as I learned no one sold black powder within 200 miles) then the gun just wouldn’t fire the cap every time. I think the hammer was just not striking the nipple squarely. But I was reluctant to return it and tried to solve the problem with different nipples. Anyway, a month ago I shipped it back and I’m to receive the repaired weapon Wednesday ... I’m super excited!

But nearly 90 days have passed ... wow!

 

[yonderin]

Internal Ballistics is both an art and a science I think.

Accuracy and small groupings is a result of having multiple projectiles leave the barrel in a consistent manner, at the "sweet spot" in the barrel harmonics. And due to different factors, every barrel is different so what works for one doesn't necessarily translate to the next. And so we torture ourselves in a most enjoyable manner finding out what combinations will make us happy.

My thoughts from what I've been taught; In a different thread it was pointed out that a smaller grain powder will be consumed and release all it's energy in a shorter period of time. In my thinking, that means the pressure peaks and starts to die off early and the projectile is still sliding it's way down the bore with friction holding it back. Resulting in the need for heavier charges than a layman would expect given that it has a higher initial (and peak?) pressure.

Unless you're a trained ballistician or scientist, I think we're all technically laymen although some folks have a lot of personal experience and observation as well the learnings of others.

WRT to point of diminishing returns; I think there is such a thing. At some point, the smaller grains are fully consumed while the larger ones are still burning and therefore creating pressure. If you have a one inch powder column, by the time the projectile has moved one inch the space has obviously doubled and if you have consumed all the smaller grain powder, friction becomes a bigger issue. The larger grain powder is still burning and creating expanding gasses.

Black powder, regardless of it's irregular shape is still a ball shaped powder. It burns from the outside in. A larger grain will take longer to consume with the surface area becoming smaller. A stick powder would do the same unless it is perforated. A single tube running through it will allow it to burn from the interior to the exterior as well, resulting in a more uniform pressure because the total burning surface is remaining more or less the same. If you had a multi-perforated powder you could actually see an increase in the burning surface and more prolonged pressure period.

I have no idea how much different amounts of compaction have on the burning of black powder beyond at least some makes it more effective.

And there is the point of different powder components affecting the burning.

Patch thickness (and ball size), powder charge, amount of sliptivity in our lube and maybe degree of compaction are some factors we try to control in our quest to find that "sweet spot" that results in accuracy.

My thoughts as a layman.