Filligree Carving

[jerrywh]

Wick.
A lot of this misunderstanding was my fault. I wasn't very clear in my original post on the stabbing in at the correct time subject.
Any way I just hate to see the new guys get off on the wrong foot like I did 50 years ago. Old habits are hard to break.

 

[hoochiepapa]

Thanks fellers!
Even when there's a tiff, a person can learn. :hatsoff:

 

[TARL01]

I hope I am not hijacking the subject - but what is the difference between a spoon and a sweep? They seem quite simular to me.
Thanks,
Woody

 

[Paul R]

Check Lee Valley online catalog (google it), find carving chisels. I think it was p 268.

Paul

 

[TARL01]

Thanks!
Woody

 

[jerrywh]

A sweep is a gouge. The term sweep is used to designate the amount of curve in the gouge so some people call a gouge a sweep. thus the terms #2 sweep is very slightly curved , a number 10 or 11 sweep is a very extreme curve and there is everything in between. Basically a #1 is a flat chisel. A spoon is a bent gouge and looks a little like a spoon. A spoon is for getting into deep recesses. I have never found a need for a spoon in gun carving so far.

 

[flintriflesmith]

That’s what I'm trying to tell you. Remove the background first almost to the design line. It's not stabbing in that’s incorrect . It's when you do it.
...
John Bivens was an excellent carver and he did it the correct way. I never said a word about John Bivens in my previous post.

I guess John did it both ways because I watched him teach carving at several NMLRA Seminars at Western Kentucky and every time he stabbed in the design first (every time), then removed the background.

The only real difference in his techniques were his preference for using a "backgrounding knife" to remove and level/smooth the background, instead of using a regular carving chisel, and his starting at the stamped line and cutting away from it for the first cut.
John also used parallel gouge cuts as an index for even removal of the same amount of background in larger areas.

Gary

 

[Mike Brooks]

That’s what I'm trying to tell you. Remove the background first almost to the design line. It's not stabbing in that’s incorrect . It's when you do it.
...
John Bivens was an excellent carver and he did it the correct way. I never said a word about John Bivens in my previous post.

I guess John did it both ways because I watched him teach carving at several NMLRA Seminars at Western Kentucky and every time he stabbed in the design first (every time), then removed the background.

The only real difference in his techniques were his preference for using a "backgrounding knife" to remove and level/smooth the background, instead of using a regular carving chisel, and his starting at the stamped line and cutting away from it for the first cut.
John also used parallel gouge cuts as an index for even removal of the same amount of background in larger areas.

Gary

Ditto, that's how he always did it when I watched him work.

 

[justafeedboy]

Jim Chambers puts on a week long course once a year with several very good carvers, Taking you from the very basics to the finished product.

 

[jerrywh]

This will really get a debate going.
Just because John Bivens or Walace Gusler did something one way doesn't make it the correct way to do it. Sorry about tarnishing your idles but it's a matter of fact. Everybody violates the rules at times. Another thing is this. It is not possible to carve by the rules at all times. On very small designs with small background areas there is no room to do it by the preferred method. It is a proven fact that Einstein was wrong at times, so is everybody else. Some of you guys need to get over the idea that some people are above reproach. The very best make mistakes and often. My theory is they are just more persistent. I never have seen a gun that had no mistakes. I have been doing this for close to 60 years. I know most of the best gun makers in the country and they all screw up at times.
One more thing- there is a way to stab in that doesn't break the design side of the wood. If you hold the chisel or stamping tool at a slant so that it cuts at a angle away from the design it will lift the background wood without putting much pressure on the design. After one gets a lot of experience he finds just what he can get away wit hand what he probably can't
Don't come up with any wise cracks about me knowing everything either. I have lots to learn. If I didn't I would quit for boredom.

 

[hoochiepapa]

It's hard not to put someone on a pedestal when you hear nothing but good things about them. When you are as nooby as I am, and you hear what a great gunmaker Jerry Huddleston is, over and over, it's hard not to believe it.
I've seen work from many famous builders. And I have the hope to just come close to their work.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Just because John Bivens or Walace Gusler did something one way doesn't make it the correct way to do it.

See, I told ya. All the experts do it wrong, I'm the only one who does it right. :haha:

 

[jerrywh]

Mike Brooks.
I make mistakes and so do you. The difference is I know the difference. Or, could it be a matter of jelousy? http://jwh-flintlocks.net/fowler1.jpg

 

[TARL01]

Thank you, Jerry. I see it now. I was looking at the end profiles of the sweeps and spoons. It was obvious after you told me.
Woody

 

[Mike Brooks]

Mike Brooks.
I make mistakes and so do you. The difference is I know the difference. Or, could it be a matter of jelousy? http://jwh-flintlocks.net/fowler1.jpg[/quote]
The only mistake I can think of that I ever made was marrying my first wife.....other than that I think I'm probably about perfect. :wink:
Jelous? You never came across as a jelouse person to me, I'm a bit surprised..... :shocked2:


Now, seroiusly Jerry, I'm no carver of any great ability and I'm completely self taught. There was no internet when I started and very few books.
Sure is fun to pull your chain Jerry! :grin:

 

[jerrywh]

Mike Brines.
Don't put me on a pedestal either. I don't think I have any special attributes or tallents. I have just been doing it a lot longer than most and I am persistant. I can't stand boredom so I need to keep learning new stuff to stop from being bored.
I should have known this much when I was 35 or 40 like Mandarino.

 

[jerrywh]

Mike Brooks.
Your good at what you do. You could be great.
I was self taught also. I only had one carving lesson in my life but I bought $20,000.00 worth of gun and art books over the years. I bought every gunmaking video, engraving video, carving video that I could find. When I started there was nothing. That was in the 50's. I never even met another gunmaker until the 80's. These guys are very lucky now.
If we lived closer together I'm sure we would be buddies. The reason I say this stuff on this web sight is because I feel sorry for the new guys and don't want them to have to learn the way I did. I made some really bad guns in the beginning. It took me two years to learn how to temper springs. Little or no information was available. I have to go out to the dungeon and engrave a gold rabbit on a French fowler stock. Talk to ya latter.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I have always admired your work Jerry. I turned up sick this morning and feel like manure so I'm taking a sick day....more or less. So, in my boredom I have had a great time yanking your chain, :grin: Thanks for being a good sport. :thumbsup:

 

[Dphar]

All of the current "masters" use incorrect carving methods, only I carve correctly..... :wink:

:rotf: :rotf:

Apparently I carve the same way you do.

:rotf:

Dan

 

[Dphar]

Mike Brooks.
Your good at what you do. You could be great.
I was self taught also. I only had one carving lesson in my life but I bought $20,000.00 worth of gun and art books over the years. I bought every gunmaking video, engraving video, carving video that I could find. When I started there was nothing. That was in the 50's. I never even met another gunmaker until the 80's. These guys are very lucky now.
If we lived closer together I'm sure we would be buddies. The reason I say this stuff on this web sight is because I feel sorry for the new guys and don't want them to have to learn the way I did. I made some really bad guns in the beginning. It took me two years to learn how to temper springs. Little or no information was available. I have to go out to the dungeon and engrave a gold rabbit on a French fowler stock. Talk to ya latter.

I started in the late 60s using Muzzle Blasts articles as a guide :idunno:

Dan