Enfield 3 band

[lethemgo]

Couple months ago finally got myself an 1853 enfield made in early 80's sold by navy arms. Great rifle and shot me some patched round balls and had a blast. My buddy bought a 1858 2 band pedersoli so we sent a few down range. In the mean time made some minie's up but haven't been able to make it back out yet for a follow up trip and get some pics. Think mine shot better and was less expensive but his is prettier.
Anyway hit the gun show this weekend and came away with an original 1858 london 3 band in great condition. Few things don't look exactly correct but have been on gun for many years as guy I got it from bought 40 years ago. Not sure about the brass barrel band and looks like a differant ram rod maybe from a springfield.
Want to find more info on makings and stuff if there's a site covering that. Found a few this week but most are vague. Barrel is stamped on underside with name turner and there's another. Maybe best to let her speak for herself.
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[Artificer]

The barrel Markings are correct “Government Barrel” Markings during the Reign of Queen Victoria. The markings from your second photo mean from left to right:

Left ”“ View Mark
Middle ”“ Inspectors Mark, in this case meaning the barrel came from Birmingham
Right ”“ Proof Mark, These letter marks are actually a T and a P

I think the name “Joseph Wilson” on the bottom of the barrel is the original barrel maker, though he could have been a contractor. (I’m doing more checking on him.)

However, this gun does not follow any Government Pattern Firearm of the period mentioned in D.W. Bailey’s, British Military Longarms, 1715 ”“ 1865. The barrel MAY have been cut down somewhere in history or the barrel MAY have been designed for use aboard ship with no bayonet. I am pretty certain the brass band was a replacement for a lost band that was similar to the front two bands.

This may also have been a gun that was surplused by the British Government and was rebuilt “for the trade” or civilian use.

How long is the barrel and what caliber is it?
Are there any other markings on the Lock Plate besides "London?" Can you provide a photo of it?

Gus

 

[lethemgo]

The barrel also has turner name on it further up barrel...was having troubles posting stuff on my little pad. I'm excited about it and a plus is the bore is in decent shape. Cant get the nipple out yet but soaking it and I'll get it eventually. I'll get more when I get home setting in work truck doing this. Want to find out all I can. Does look to be 58 cal but haven't measured it yet.

 

[lethemgo]

 

[Artificer]

The hammer looks "odd" and probably the lock was Belgium made - not unusual for British Military guns then or earlier. The Hammer screw and washer are replacements.

Does the rammer have a screw slot in the end?

Gus

 

[Artificer]

BTW, the Lock Plate Threads (The British Ordnance Term for the Decorative Double Engraved Lines on a Lock, Cock/Hammer or other parts.) are not well done and reinforce the probability the lock is Belgium made. The lock just does not have the high quality finish of the period British "Lowell" Locks.

Still need the barrel length to determine if the barrel was cut down. If it was not cut down and considering the quality of the lock, I would bet this originally was a gun for "Sea Service" or Navy use, but not by Royal Marines.

Gus

 

[lethemgo]

Barrel is 37 1/4 my `58 is 39" quik mic job says approx .58

 

[Artificer]

OK, I just realized what I thought might have been the end of the rammer was in fact the end of a sidelock screw in one of your photo's above. My apology.

The first model P1853 Rifled Musket had a button end rammer. So that may be the rammer in your gun. From the second model P1853 onward, they changed to the elongated rammer head with the slot in it.

Joseph Wilson was a prodigious gun maker/contractor who supplied guns to both the North and South during the UnCivil War. (I wanted to make sure I was not mixing him up with John Wilson of Birmingham, who I am more familiar with.) Here are some links about him and a couple of his guns:
http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Wilson-12231
http://www.lodgewood.com/Excellent-Original-P1853-Enfield-Musket-By-Joseph-Wilson_p_2331.html
http://www.collegehillarsenal.com/shop/product.php?printable=Y&productid=52

The front of the stock and muzzle end of the barrel reminds me of the "Bar on Band" P 1858 "Short Rifle." I can not see the right side of the front band that well in your photo's, does it have a bar on the right side of the band that could be used as a bayonet stud? Probably not, but I thought I would ask.

Since the barrel has been shortened and the lock is probably Belgium made, this is most likely a "parts gun" that was assembled for the American or African trade.

Gus

 

[lethemgo]

The barrel is marked with turners name and wilson. It does not have any lugs anywhere on end of barrel except the front sight. All this is very interesting and glad you have the information and knowledge to at least try to figure out part of her story. Thank you so much for the time you spent. Thanks a lot Gus...

 

[Artificer]

Your rifle really piqued my interest, especially with the front of the barrel and the fore stock with the front band looking like a "Bar on Band" Rifle.

Unfortunately, I did not run across any information on Turner and he may have been the "Factor" or what we today might call the Distributor who placed the order for guns like this one. I'm just not sure. Maybe someone else has information on him?

Glad to be of assistance and thank you for the kind words.

Gus

 

[lethemgo]

I've read that Thomas Turner was a barrel maker in Birmingham that was used to manufacturer for the enfield barrels.

 

[Artificer]

Good info on Turner.

I tend to think that Joseph Wilson made the barrel because his name is on the underside of the breech and the "G.F." is struck over it as well as the "B" struck over it at the end of Wilson's name. IOW, the name Joseph Wilson was struck first and then the other marks added later. When a barrel was re-used, it had to go through proof again and may/would have the name of the person or company who viewed and proofed it the second time struck on the barrel that already had the earlier markings.

I found the following link that describes in some small detail how Thomas Turner marked barrels close to this time period. Are there markings on your barrel mentioned in the link other than the name Turner on the barrel?
http://www.collegehillarsenal.com/shop/product.php?productid=247

The information you provided opens up more possibilities on the origin of your gun. Turner may have assembled the gun from surplused parts or perhaps Wilson and Turner shared the work for a large contract, as they both were partners in BSAT? It would be VERY interesting if you found a mark or marks on the stock that are mentioned in the above links for either Wilson or Thomas or both. This because the mark/s on the stock would seem to be later than the barrel and may tell you who/what was the last firm to work the gun.

Gus

 

[lethemgo]

Got a few better pics...inside lock...markings underside barrel...turner name...only marks on stock slight oval left side by screws and under barrel at least all I've been able to find.