Dangerous Custom Build

[jamesthomas]

What I would like to see is the stocks. And see how good the wood and workmanship is on them. GangGreen says they are excellent, while another poster said they were hidieous. If they are as good as GangGreen says then a simple rebarrel would have been in order. If not, then the seller should have refunded all money if the buyer would have returned both guns. JMHO. BTW I think DD1 should have mentioned that he recieved a refund on labor and the discount for the guns being late. Again JMO.

 

[alex efremenko]

The builder did offer a full refund.Customer declined.He wanted the guns[good or bad] also.
Nuff said in my book.Learn and move on..

 

[tg]

True but the product should have never left the shop concidering the gross nature of the problems, good news will build up over time bad newa travels like a lightning bolt

 

[GANGGREEN]

A couple of things. First of all, I spoke with Rick this morning and he said that he doesn't have a photo hosting account but he's trying to rectify that so he can post photos today (one would have thought that the owner would have posted photos of the hideous weapons rather than just photos of a blown touch hole). Anyone that claims to have seen these guns and still says that they're "hideous" is either blind or has an agenda that does not involve telling the truth on a public message board.

Further, in response to those posters who are suggesting that these may be two honorable men and that they should work something out, you need to know that there was back and forth for several months. Rick made many offers to make this right and finally after being threatened by the man, he made one final offer, that being that he'd take the rifles back and make a full refund or that the buyer would accept a partial refund (I don't know the exact number but I know that it was substantial) and keep the rifles. That was the option that the man chose. Keep in mind that at the time, there was no talk about mechanical issues or failures, only that the buyer wasn't happy that the two rifles weren't identical. (Edit: the man did tell Rick about the bore of the one rifle and Rick offered to inspect it and make it right as has already been described).

Months later the man claims to have had this mechanical failure through no fault of his own but after what the man said and did before that, I'd never allow that it was a mysterious mechanical failure without questioning what else may have been done. The point is that he was already unhappy with the guns even though he got them for a steal and even though he had already had many offers from Rick to make it right, though there was nothing materially wrong with the guns at that point in time (again, aside from the bore issue which may or may not have been Rick's fault but which could have been easily resolved).

I think that when people see the photos and if/when Rick tells exactly what this man has in the two guns monetarily, a lot of people that have been critical of Rick will change sides very quickly.

 

[alex efremenko]

A picture is worth a thousand words.

 

[RADeO]

This whole thread makes me.......Sad.

It truly makes me sad too!

...Was there anything wrong with the firearms when they were received? I don't know and neither did Rick, I suppose it's possible that something happened during shipping or that something happened after the man received and unpackaged the guns but before he inspected them fully.... .

I know, it seems remarkable that anybody would damage a rifle to make a builder look bad but this man's requests and demands were unreasonable from long before he suggested that the gun or the builder was "dangerous". Perhaps the man had a bad taste in his mouth, was still trying to make Rick pay and he did something unintentional or dangerous in the loading and/or shooting processes. I'm not making any accusation, just saying that stranger things have happened... .

The rifles were fully inspected immediately upon uncrating. The debris was removed from the barrel of rifle #1 and the gouges in the bore noted within 10 minutes of removing the rifle from the box.

The pictures we have posted , except those regarding the blown vent liner, were taken at the time of uncrating.

Perhaps this could be solved with a new barrel for one gun and a new oversize vent liner on the other barrel.
To me these are the only two issues that are important at this point.
Nit Wit

I will be investigating the installation of a larger-diameter vent liner. If the hole can be cleaned up with a letter "I" drill, I think a 5/16" liner can be installed successfully.

What I would like to see is the stocks. And see how good the wood and workmanship is on them. GangGreen says they are excellent, while another poster said they were hidieous. If they are as good as GangGreen says then a simple rebarrel would have been in order. If not, then the seller should have refunded all money if the buyer would have returned both guns. JMHO. BTW I think DD1 should have mentioned that he recieved a refund on labor and the discount for the guns being late. Again JMO.

We can post pictures of the stocks if you wish. The main concern with them is that they are of dissimilar styles. As an example, the forend profile of rifle #2 is rounded, while #1 is flat (they were BOTH supposed to be rounded). To correct this error would require restocking. The butt plates are of different styles (they were supposed to be the same) and the patchboxes do not match. I will have to retake pictures of the patchboxes, but here is what the butts look like. These pictures were takes at the time of uncrating. What you see is exactly as they came out of the box:

Here is Mr. Larnerd's photo of rifle #2 prior to shipping. Please note the shape of the sideplate, which was the desired shape to be used on both rifles:

Here is a picture of the sideplates on the rifles as received. Note mis-matched lock screw heads on top rifle (which is rifle #2). Photos taken at time of uncrating:

The plate design on the rifles as received was not as ordered. The correct this error would require restocking both rifles, because the plates as received are larger than that which was originally installed on rilfe #2.

 

[FishDFly]

This whole thread makes me.......Sad.

Yep....


For all the folks with no dog in the hunt nor a horse in the race, why are folks commenting since they have no invested interest in the matter?

What is relative is only to those who have a business contract which consideration (money) and which has been admitted?

Seems simple does it not?

 

[rabjr]

The rifles were fully inspected immediately upon uncrating. The debris was removed from the barrel of rifle #1 and the gouges in the bore noted within 10 minutes of removing the rifle from the box.

I can't get past this. I've had the privilege of opening 4 crates so far myself and every time the guns were above and beyond anything I had hoped they would be. I would not have accepted anything less. So I have a hard time understanding why anyone would accept anything that clearly was not what you wanted in the first place.

 

[BrownBear]

Bottom line for me is that the crate was not delivered to his door by a Waste Management Corp trash truck.

Those guns should NEVER have left the shop. Period. End of story. Everything else afterward is noise.

 

[Vaino]

Except that the doubt created by this "deal gone bad" has the potential to harm the builder and also the veracity of the customer. There's a whole lot of contradictory or puzzling "speech" from both the builder and the customer and an unbiased arbitrator would be the only way out, but I no longer think this is possible. One item...not many people take photos upon receiving guns so a "case" was already being built against the builder, rightfully or wrongfully. Another question to builders on the website...have you experienced similar "deals gone bad? After reading about this fiasco, I'm more appreciative of my spec building...at my age I don't need any complications as illustrated by both the builder and customer....Fred

 

[GANGGREEN]

I think the type of person that was trying to get something for nothing might do that. The builder had well over $1000 in parts in those guns and likely a couple hundred hours of labor involved and this man made a suggestion that he should receive a full refund AND keep the rifles. That boggles my mind. Maybe if it was a Ronco Veg-A-Matic that you bought on the Home Shopping Channel but not two beautiful custom built flintlock rifles.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

Another question to builders on the website...have you experienced similar "deals gone bad? After reading about this fiasco, I'm more appreciative of my spec building...at my age I don't need any complications as illustrated by both the builder and customer....Fred

The one time I contracted to build a rifle, I followed my gut instinct and refunded the retainer and am thankful for that decision each and every day, I build on spec alone.

Life is way to short to deal with this kind of grief.



Most still involved in this thread should go back and re-read each and every post from the beginning, there are some glaring contradictions in this tale of woe.

upon reciept the rifles should have been returned if not what was wanted/ordered, negotiating to keep the rifles as well as recieve a refund seems shady to me. Alot can/could have happened in the six months that the buyers had the rifles before posting their account of events.

With the collective amount of shooting/armory experience between the buyers why on earth would you have wanted to fire a weapon that seemed suspect to you in the first place, not to mention standing on the flash side of a new rifle while range testing.

The builder should have got out of the build when he realised that his head was not in it.


I have yet to see evidence of "dangerous workmanship" here.

 

[Vaino]

The browning on both bbls in the latest photos of both rifles looks excellent...when did the addt'l heavy rust happen? The bbls in the photos don't look anywhere like the pics of the overly rusted bbls submitted earlier by the customer and seeing these rifles were in the possession of the customer....something isn't "kosher" and demands an explanation.....Fred

 

[Rifleman1776]

This whole thread makes me.......Sad.

Yep....


For all the folks with no dog in the hunt nor a horse in the race, why are folks commenting since they have no invested interest in the matter?

What is relative is only to those who have a business contract which consideration (money) and which has been admitted?

Seems simple does it not?

Edward, I disagree with your point of view completely. We all have a dog in the hunt. The ml crowd is relatively small. Most of us who might desire to have a nice custom rifle built do not have a next door neighbor to do it for us. We must depend on long distance relationships and a lot of trust. When that trust is violated with shoddy workmanship the entire ml community is harmed. The very existance of the ml avocation was created to preserve the tradition of the old ways. No doubt, scoundrels existed 'back then'. But craftsmen took pride in their work and the people they sold to took pride in their finished guns (or furniture, or carriages, or whatever) and passed that pride to future generations. With the situation we are discussing now, that chain of pride has (apparently) been violated. We are all hurt. And those who may contemplate ordering a rifle in the future from a distant builder may decide against it because of concerns he will end up receiving a shoddy finished product. That hurts the reputation and income of the honest and talented builders. And it discourages others from even taking up the ml avocation.

 

[Mike Brooks]

The guns should have been sent back for a refund or to be built again.
I have had 2 or 3 unsatisfied customers. In those cases I took the gun back and built another to the customer's wishes. Two of them were finish issues (to glossy) and the other the pull was about 1 1/2" too short (what was I thinking? :youcrazy: )

 

[roundball]

Edward, I disagree with your point of view completely. We all have a dog in the hunt.

+!

:thumbsup:

 

[gizamo]

I am sorry. The counteroffer of the two guns being kept by the buyers, with a 100 % refund of their money, speaks as to the integrity of those putting that offer on the table.

I cannot even imagine anyone with a clear conscious, making such a pitiful request...

Shame :nono:

 

[GANGGREEN]

The browning on both bbls in the latest photos of both rifles looks excellent...when did the addt'l heavy rust happen? The bbls in the photos don't look anywhere like the pics of the overly rusted bbls submitted earlier by the customer and seeing these rifles were in the possession of the customer....something isn't "kosher" and demands an explanation.....Fred

Exactly, it rather makes you doubt the veracity of anything that the man has said.

Let's go back to his original claim about the "dangerous custom build". If my understanding is correct, he's claiming that the hole for the liner was drilled and tapped in an oblong fashion and that it was only threaded on one side of the hole. Now, not being a machinist or experienced builder, I don't know if that's even possible but it seems doubtful to me. If Rick in his genius was somehow able to pull that one off, wouldn't you think that the shooter would recognize it after one shot, or five, or thirty. What happened here, according to the buyer, was that the gun performed fine for 50 shots and blew up on the 51st. I don't know what caused the accident but a double load, barrel obstruction, magnum load or the wrong powder could have caused that sort of thing. It seems pretty obvious to me that the misshapen hole was caused by the "explosion" and wasn't previously there.

Now, after 5 pages on this thread, it's devolved to the buyer's brother talking about the shape of the sideplate, the shape of the sideplate for God's sake. If it was wrong and you can prove that the builder didn't fulfill his written contract, then by all means, either take a full refund, have him fix it or keep the rifle and take a small refund for your troubles.

We now have people referring to the builder as a scoundrel and a whole lot of people who have jumped on the bandwagon of the OP without any real evidence other than his say so. In fact, some evidence is starting to suggest that the original story may have a lot of holes in it and a few posters are starting to come around to that reality. I have a feeling that when this all comes out that a lot of people are going to owe Rick Larnerd and Gobbler Knob an apology.

This is a case of a guy that tried to get something for nothing. When that didn't work out as planned for him, he still ended up with the deal of the century on two well-built rifles but that wasn't enough so he made good on his threat to slander Rick all over the internet.

For shame.

 

[alex efremenko]

Now if I had ordered two "identical " rifles or two somewhat close, those two guns would have been sent back upon opening,Along with a phone call or letter explaining why.By keeping and using them the buyer accepted them.As to the barrel issues,the builder was not unreasonable.I question some of the material from the barrel,some looks to be rust like ,other looks to be from a mouse 's nest.But a picture can decieve.

 

[Roy]

Anyone that claims to have seen these guns and still says that they're "hideous" is either blind or has an agenda that does not involve telling the truth on a public message board.

That would be Grey Whiskers.. From my several pts with him and few phone calls I have always trusted Lon to be an honest and good person. :v