Damascus barrels and safety???

[Skychief]

Can any of you give us the FACTS regarding the use of damascus barreled shotguns from a safety standpoint?

Many times I have been warned not to use them. Others say light BP loads only, while others say shoot them however you wish!

Lots of contradiction where the Damascus barreled guns are concerned, it seems to me.

At one time I had a Damascus barreled smoothbore. I traded it in a weak moment to a friend. He has used it successfully on turkey. Still, others tell him it's a matter of time before it "lets go". I miss the old gun.

Fact is, I have a soft spot for the original muzzleloading side by sides with such barrels and would like to own another. I am one that shoots the guns he owns. Hence my question regarding the safe use of these guns.

Thanks for your thoughts and experiences, Skychief.

 

[rich pierce]

There are no FACTS. Depends on the bore, doesn't it? There are many reasons folks were told not to shoot Damascus barreled cartridge shotguns with high pressure smokeless powder shotgun shells. Generally speaking, shotguns with Damascus barrels were older, could be heavily corroded because they were previously shot with black powder, shot loose, you name it. They could have short chambers. It might even have originated as a marketing strategy- "you need a new gun!" I have shot Damascus barreled cartridge doubles and percussion doubles for decades. Mine have reasonably good bores.

 

[Skychief]

I have done some searching here and found some threads regarding these barrels. Still, I appreciate anything you all will add here.

Thanks, Skychief.

 

[Skychief]

Please assume reasonably good bores.....

 

[remuse]

Assuming that they are in good shape with respect to thickness, dents etc, load and shoot them as they were originally designed. There's no magic in BP per se, but you want to load to similar pressures. Today, shells are loaded to to around 11,500 psi. 9,000 was more like it in BP days. RST and Classic Doubles load under those levels specifically for the old doubles. I routinely shoot them as well as BP for effect in my 1889 Remington with twist barrels and my Parker DH with damascus barrels circa 1880. Sherman Bell did a series of tests for the Double Gun Journal in which he couldn't destroy old pitted ragged out damascus and twist barrels with modern proof loads.
I have a theory about the evil damacus barrels which has more to do with the powder than the barrels. Early nitro powders were 1:1 with BP so everyone went their merry way loading as they always had. Then the more modern nitro powders came in with their 2 or 3:1 ratios and people began blowing their guns up since they didn't change their volume recipes.

It took a lot of marketing and WW1 to get quality buyers to switch from damascus to "black barrels". Plenty of damascus barrels were nitro proofed and Parker installed it's last in the '20s. The fact that people are shooting them now is a major reason the values of the damascus guns are catching up with their fluid brothers.

 

[Skychief]

Sherman Bell did a series of tests for the Double Gun Journal in which he couldn't destroy old pitted ragged out damascus and twist barrels with modern proof loads.

Thanks Weston for the information.

Do you happen to know where I could find this article. Perhaps you may know which issue of DGJ it is in or where to find it online.

Thanks again, Skychief.

 

[ebiggs1]

I also own old double barreled shotguns. All are cartridge guns though. They are not designed to shoot modern shot shells because those shells did not exist when the gun was developed. I shoot the RST shells in them with no problems. That said, I had them checked by a gunsmith that is savvy in old shotguns, of any type, before shooting. You should too! No one on a forum can tell you your gun is safe. It must be inspected by a knowledgeable gunsmith. Do it. There was, let's say some pretty shoddy barrel makers back in the day and that is probably why Damascus barrels got the bad wrap. Good barrels are safe to shoot using the loading they were designed for. Rust and pits are the things to check for.
Bottom line is have it checked.

 

[Skychief]

Sound advice ebiggs. What is RST referring to?

Thanks, Skychief.

 

[Lorne Johnson]

I would add that knowing the wall thickness of the barrels is of considerable importance, although this is generally a gunsmith job. It's important on these old guns because the bores are almost invariably enlarged for various reasons, including long usage, honing, and rust.

 

[Grandpa Ron]

Damacas barrels can be safe to shoot. Many of the old Brit guns are Nitro proofed in England.

Sherman Bell's review in the Double Gun Journal also showed that some of the old Damacas guns were quite strong.

The 11,000 psi of a modern 12 gauge shell is a bit high for the 7,000 to 9000 psi of the Damascas era shells so people hand load or buy lower pressure loads. Also shell length can be a issue.

The loads I use for skeet are about 5000 to 6000 psi at 1200 ft/sec. I also shoot Black Power skeet loads.

Now comes the real issue. Many Damascas barrels are fine to shoot at lower pressures loads but the question is; is your barrel safe?

Unfortunately, no one on the board can tell you that.

A gunsmith familiar with Damascas barrels might help or you my have to proof it youself.

 

[ebiggs1]

RST is a company that supplies era typical shot shells. Actually not a topic supported on this forum but you may find other forums that do.

 

When I would be brought a damascus barreled shotgun to check out I would first examine the barrels inside AND OUT. It's best to err on the side of caution and any pitting inside or on the outside of the barrel should raise a red flag. Then there's always the question of whether or not the two barrels are still firmly attached to each other. I would clamp the breech end in padded vise jaws and give the muzzle end a good twist with my hand. I only had one come apart in 40-something years but I was glad it did so in the shop and not when my customer's hand was holding the forend as he pulled the trigger. My final step was to load the gun with black powder shells, tie it to an old tire, tie cords to the trigger(s) and fire the gun from a distance by yanking on the cord(s). If it survived 5 shots per barrel without any sign of problems I'd tell the customer it was probably safe to shoot with black powder loads.

Overly cautious? Probably, but then again I never had a customer sue me.

John

 

[texcl]

I proof load my original shotguns with the heaviest load I'd use in the field but use 3f instead of 2f or 1f. I remotely fire them several times then clean and inspect them, this goes for breachloader as well as muzzleloaders, still have all my fingers for now!

 

[RwBeV]

No one on this forum can tell you if your barrels are safe to shoot. All that can be done here is to give suggestions as to what to look for and what to have done. The main thing I see here is to have the gun checked out buy someone that knows what he is doing. I traded for my first Damascus gun about 25 years ago. Knowing nothing at the time about such guns I took it a local gun smith, he got ****** that I even brought in his shop. Told me to take it out side an throw it in the dumpster. The gun was built buy Mortimer in London, it was very heavy and the bores where smooth as a baby's butt. I wasn't to happy with this advise, so I found a fellow here in town that shot and owned lots of these guns. He taught me what to look for and how to shoot Damascus guns. My point is that not all gun smiths know about Twist Steel barrels. I now have a safe full of them. One other thing don't let anyone try and Magna-flux the barrels, this is supposed to show cracks in the metal. Since the barrels are forge welded from twisted rod, it will show sub-surface indications.

The bottom line is have it checked out by someone that knows about Damascus barrels, and then go out and have fun! (if they check out)

Bob

 

[paulvallandigham]

You can contact the owners of The Double Gun Journal, in Michigan, and they can tell you which issues have that series of articles, and whether they have copies of those back issues. If so, they can tell you a price to purchase them. They might be willing to sell you just copies of those articles, rather than the entire issues, if they are running low on full copies of those issues.

TDGJ comes out 4 times a year, and is a very expensive magazine on the news stands, and not much cheaper if you subscribe. However, its printed on very expensive paper, and bound by a soft cover made from an imitation leather, with gold lettering. The photography is the best you can find.

Its not a magazine for everyone, as the title implies. However, they do publish some few articles on single barrel guns, and some of the guns have rifled barrels. The articles cover Old as well as newly produced Double Guns, and they tend to be more technical in nature than what you find in most gun magazines.

A group of scientists, including the late Dr. Oscar Gaddy, were involved in doing the destructive testing of Damascus Steel barrels for the articles that Sherman Bell wrote. Oscar told me that some of the barrels tested had holes in the barrels( tiny, rusted through holes, but holes, nonetheless) and that everyone involved was SURE that these barrels would rupture or burst from the testing. They took obvious precautions to protect themselves during these tests, and were actually SHOCKED when these guns DIDN'T FAIL. Oh, they sent smoke out those hole, but Oscar told me that they actually had failures of the metal before they had failures of the welds, excepting through corrosion.

All the test results ran counter to what they( me, too!) also had been told for years about shooting Damascus barrels. :shocked2: :shocked2: :shocked2: :hmm: :idunno: :hatsoff: :hatsoff:

The Double Gun Journal: P.O. Box 550, East Jordan, Michigan 49727. Phone: 616-536-7439
http://www.doublegunshop.com/doublegunjournal.htm

According to their website, as of the December, 2010 issue, the magazine is no longer being sold in bookstores( news stands). You must order them thru the internet, or subscribe. Subscription is $39.95 per year.

 

[Skychief]

Thanks Paul....I will call them and try to get a copy of the issue or article in question. It is a beautiful magazine, isn't it?

Skychief.