D Guard Bowie

[rustyh]

What time frame would they have been seen or used. I know they were in the south during the civil war but were they in the mountains during the early 1830's?

 

[nwtradegun]

to my knowledge it did not come into play until after the fur trade just prior to the war of northern agregtion.

 

[LaBonte]

The only evidence for D guard Bowies is those used by the soldiers of the South - late 1850's is the earliest mention of them I know of. Norm Flayderman's massive tome, The Bowie Knife-Unsheathing and American Legend has an excellent chapter on D-Guards.

 

[satx78247]

I would guess that it depends on how one defines a "Bowie knife". = Some so-called "Bowie knives" look like short swords & swords have had "D-shaped guards" for a long time.

Fwiw, the New Orleans Museum has an 1830s "Bowie knife" (with knuckle guard) that has a "upswept" 18-20" blade that's about 2.5" wide & about 3/8" thick. The handle/guard/sheath are engraved & "mounted in silver".
(To me, that's a sword or a "really fancy" machete.)

just my opinion, satx

 

[crockett]

From what I can figure there weren't that many Bowies in the mountains. Most trappers carried either a butcher knife or scalping type knife. A few carried fighting knives and most appear to be dagger types.

 

[Carteret Kid]

The Bowie Knife was more a fashion accessory than a combat weapon. Young rural men who could not afford a fancy saber or later a revolver wore them to look tough. They are promenant in early war (1861) derogotypes. War time accounts mention them as being tossed away after the first real battles. Manasess or Shiloh.

 

[satx78247]

Actually it depends on what period that you're talking about.
In the TX Revolution era and even earlier in New Orleans & the Deep South, Bowie knives were fighting knives and DEFINITELY not "fashion accessories" until revolvers became the norm.
(During the flintlock period, MOST militiamen depended on their knife as a WEAPON.)

By TWBTS, Bowie knives were unnecessary & the prime reason that so many WBTS-era Bowies are still around today is that they were "sent home" & kept as "keepsakes".
(There are a LOT of "fancy" CSA dress uniforms still around for the same reason. = They were not NEEDED for combat & were "sent home, to be put away".)

For example, the ONLY known original CS Marine enlisted uniform still belongs to the SGT's family in Brunswick County, VA. - It was worn exactly TWICE between 1861-65, as it was simply too costly & ornate for daily wear. = Once to a party in Richmond in February 1862 and to the man's wedding in early 1863.
(In the late 1940s, it was found "packed away & forgotten" in a trunk in the attic of the CSA veteran's home, along with his CSMC hat, NCO sword, holster, belt, frog and other keepsakes of his Marine service.)

yours, satx

 

[crockett]

There were actually "Bowie Knife Control" laws passed. Just my feeling but they weighed a lot and a son of true wilderness probably wouldn't want to drag something like that around when a dagger style worked as well. Bowies might have been more popular on the fringe of the frontier- New Orleans, St. Louis, etc.

 

[satx78247]

AFTER Rezin & Jim Bowie "popularized" Bowie knives, "everybody & their dog" started carrying one in the Southland.
(I hasten to add that just WEARING a Bowie knife could get a person "called out" for "blades for 2 & coffee for one" in New Orleans.)

Bowies do NOT necessarily weigh more than daggers, Arkansas Toothpicks or any other fighting knife.
(Rezin Bowie carried a VERY ornate silver-mounted Bowie for years that had a 5" blade. - It is in the collection of HAM.)

yours, satx

 

[Treestalker]

The D-guard Bowie knife was a very useful tool to a soldier with a non-regulation firearm, like some in Confederate service. From chopping brush and kindling to hand to hand combat, gutting game, and building shelters it was an all around useful tool.Most Northern soldiers had a musket and bayonet to pack already, and declined a larger knife. But like the cutlass of the Pirates and Boarding parties at sea the D-guard Bowie was a fierce hacking and slashing weapon with built in knucks. So feared it is still illegal to carry here in the Bowie State. (Make that the 'Unnatural' State.) Tree.

 

[BillinOregon]

Seems I read somewhere that the D-guards were popular among Confederate soldiers early in the war, but with time and experience, many abandoned them for their weight and limited utility in combat.

 

[crockett]

Well, to answer Twister's original question, I will go out on a limb and so no. Jim Clyman mentions a Bowie in California in the 1850's and one was in the inventory on a E. Provost trip to the Red River around 1839 but no mention that they were D guards, so very few Bowies and no evidence of any D guards in the mountains in the 1830's. The knives in the mountains were mostly scalpers and butcher knives carried in a sheath stuck under the belt- diagonally - across the small of the back. A few carried big fighting knives worn cross draw style ( for a right handed person- on your left front) but double edges knives were very popular- the "mountain man dirk".
Nothing is etched in stone, I speak in general terms.

 

[Treestalker]

That is probably true. An infantryman can only pack so much stuff and the temptation to abandon anything of weight must have been enormous. I would imagine later in the war soldiers were better supplied, either by the rear or by battlefield pick up (only dropped once!) Thank you for your response, Tree.

 

[crockett]

The Museum of the Confederacy in Richmond has a very large D guard Bowie, from a soldier that was part of an artillery crew. When I saw it I thought "that makes sense" an artillery outfit doesn't have to march around as much as infantry and if the position is over run you'll need a close quarters weapon. I'm thinking maybe they were carried more by artillery units.

 

[satx78247]

A few nights ago, one of the members of the local Civil War Roundtable did a "show & tell" of his G-grandfather's BIG "D-guard" Bowie that he carried as a member of the 6th TX Cavalry throughout the WBTS, as well as some of this other WBTS equipment/memorabilia.

The Bowie has a 20.5" blade about 2.75 inches wide & about 3/8 inch thick, a oak & brass handle/guard and was equipped with a "saddle sheath".
(My GUESS is that it was "local smith-made".)

I suspect that you are correct about artillery (and cavalry) units carrying these "short swords".

yours, satx

 

[bpd303]

The artillery units carried them because many times brush had to be cut in front of the guns to facilitate aiming. I made a copy of one that I saw in a museum (can't remember which one).

 

[crockett]

That one that I saw had a huge blade, not 20 plus inches but maybe 14" and the clip was very upswept. I really don't know that much about them. The museum also has quite a few swords and a lot of swords have huge chips of steel missing along the edges- from sword fights I guess. Maybe some of the handles/guards were salvaged for the D guard Bowies- not sure on that.
At really close quarters if you could dodge a bayonet thrust and grab the opponent's musket and have a big D guard in your other hand- probably a pretty good weapon.
I might be wrong but it seems a lot of the artillery units were pretty good on the uniforms and equipment.

 

[Rifleman1776]

So feared it is still illegal to carry here in the Bowie State. (Make that the 'Unnatural' State.)

:shocked2: Really? Nebber heerd that before.

 

[Treestalker]

I haven't checked the law lately but the D-guard was considered to be 'knuckles'; Illegal under federal law and so enforced by the State. Large knives worn in town must be out in the open, I guess so the police can see it and do what they do. The 'Official' name of Arkansas used to be the 'Bear State, later the 'Bowie State', Now the 'Natural State'. I call it the 'Unnatural State' due to all the stupifying laws being foisted on her citizens. The new slogan for Arkansas is 'Come on Vacation, Leave on Probation' I didn't make that one up. Anyway, the only D-guard bowies I've seen in use were at re-enactments. Tree.

 

[satx78247]

There are several original D-guard Bowies at HAM (or at least there was the last time that I was there several years ago) - I doubt that the Bowies have been removed from the collection.

Btw, Arkansas was also once called "The Land of Opportunity".

yours, satx