Conical Terminal Performance Research

[ETipp]

Ok fine but if they were really really bad it would be common knowledge by now.
I'd be more concerned about them moving off the charge over an extended day/s hunt.

That is a very legitimate concern, at least for this ole boy. I have noticed that several different conical bullets I have tried are what I would call, way too easy to push down the bore.

I reckon the best we can do if we are going to use projectiles that might be prone to moving off the charge is to occasionally run the ramrod down the bore. However, as for me and the thick, steep mountainous terrain I hunt, it might require doing so more frequent.

 

[smokepolehall]

Most all of the banded conicals engrave as they are loaded in bbl. They are not under-sized mini's. I have always had good kill shot groups as in modeer. Slow twist bbl.'s can use them, short height as in sq. to bore will give decent accuracy. Just have to see what powder charge they like n how far you are shooting yardage. I have killed tick toters out to 150-170 yards with maxi-ball conicals

 

[chorizo]

Slow twist bbl.'s can use them, short height as in sq. to bore will give decent accuracy.

Having been experimenting with fast twist and conicals I can "reverse validate" the above statement. The shorter the bullet is in relation to bore size the better the accuracy with the slower twist rate. This seems to be a real factor in the larger bore sizes (58) with faster twist rates as to get a bullet long enough requires a heavy bullet and the heavier the bullet the harder it is to push it fast enough to get some decent external ballistics without accuracy suffering. (as well as the shooter from recoil....I am not recoil sensitive and most loads are no more punishing than a 12 ga duck load...but when you start using 580 gr bullets with 120 grains of FFFg in a sub 7lb carbine, it sometimes leaves marks, especially from the bench).

I have been finding that at least 1/2 of a rotation in the length of the barrel (say a 24" barrel with a 1:48 twist) coupled with adequate (think faster) velocity (which gives you RPM on the bullet) will stabilize a shorter (lighter weight) conical whereas a longer (and thus heavier) conical can stabilize at lower velocities with a faster twist. (again RPM).

I was unable to get the desired accuracy out of the 58 cals at the desired velocities with the barrel lengths I was looking for. 1:32 to 1:38 with 24" to 22" barrels 444 gr to 580 gr bullets in of various types with lots of weights in between. I could get velocity but not accuracy and vice versa but not both. This was over a spectrum of 5 different guns, barrels and bullet types. The 58 seems to be in its happy place moving slower with faster twist short barrels and can move faster with slower twist with longer barrels. I didn't give it an as extensive shooting research as it wasn't meeting basic criteria so I moved on to the 54s.

For frame of reference, having shot hundreds of rounds over the last 7 months in research in 54s and 58s with 1:32 to 1:48 twist I have found the following: 54 cal with 450 grain to 525 grain bullets with at least 1400 FPS MV and 23 " 1:32 or 1:38 twist barrels have shot the most accurately for me, with the ability to reach out to 125 yards accurately and with adequate retained energy for elk sized animals.

The 54cal 1:48 with 24" barrel shot 375 gr (CVA) conicals the best. The 54 cal 1:32 with 22" barrel shot the 485 gr (no Excuses) best. The 54 cal 1:32 with 23" barrel shot the 450 gr (plains style) conical the best with the 1:38 close behind. All of them were running 1480 FPS to 1580 FPS MV. All are sub 3" groups at 100 yards.

While the above discussion is external ballistics and is important as you can't kill what you can't hit, it does lead to terminal ballistic performance. As for terminal performance all but the 375 gr 54 have greater than 1200 ftlbs of retained energy at 125 yards so I would expect bone breaking through and through penetration from these flat point solids. Hopefully I will get to prove that out hunting elk in a few weeks.

All of this was to find a lighter weight hunting carbine with adequate punch for elk out to 125 yards. I don't know if this helps at all, but as some data points of reference it might get you started.

 

[ETipp]

Having been experimenting with fast twist and conicals I can "reverse validate" the above statement. The shorter the bullet is in relation to bore size the better the accuracy with the slower twist rate. This seems to be a real factor in the larger bore sizes (58) with faster twist rates as to get a bullet long enough requires a heavy bullet and the heavier the bullet the harder it is to push it fast enough to get some decent external ballistics without accuracy suffering. (as well as the shooter from recoil....I am not recoil sensitive and most loads are no more punishing than a 12 ga duck load...but when you start using 580 gr bullets with 120 grains of FFFg in a sub 7lb carbine, it sometimes leaves marks, especially from the bench).

I have been finding that at least 1/2 of a rotation in the length of the barrel (say a 24" barrel with a 1:48 twist) coupled with adequate (think faster) velocity (which gives you RPM on the bullet) will stabilize a shorter (lighter weight) conical whereas a longer (and thus heavier) conical can stabilize at lower velocities with a faster twist. (again RPM).

I was unable to get the desired accuracy out of the 58 cals at the desired velocities with the barrel lengths I was looking for. 1:32 to 1:38 with 24" to 22" barrels 444 gr to 580 gr bullets in of various types with lots of weights in between. I could get velocity but not accuracy and vice versa but not both. This was over a spectrum of 5 different guns, barrels and bullet types. The 58 seems to be in its happy place moving slower with faster twist short barrels and can move faster with slower twist with longer barrels. I didn't give it an as extensive shooting research as it wasn't meeting basic criteria so I moved on to the 54s.

For frame of reference, having shot hundreds of rounds over the last 7 months in research in 54s and 58s with 1:32 to 1:48 twist I have found the following: 54 cal with 450 grain to 525 grain bullets with at least 1400 FPS MV and 23 " 1:32 or 1:38 twist barrels have shot the most accurately for me, with the ability to reach out to 125 yards accurately and with adequate retained energy for elk sized animals.

The 54cal 1:48 with 24" barrel shot 375 gr (CVA) conicals the best. The 54 cal 1:32 with 22" barrel shot the 485 gr (no Excuses) best. The 54 cal 1:32 with 23" barrel shot the 450 gr (plains style) conical the best with the 1:38 close behind. All of them were running 1480 FPS to 1580 FPS MV. All are sub 3" groups at 100 yards.

While the above discussion is external ballistics and is important as you can't kill what you can't hit, it does lead to terminal ballistic performance. As for terminal performance all but the 375 gr 54 have greater than 1200 ftlbs of retained energy at 125 yards so I would expect bone breaking through and through penetration from these flat point solids. Hopefully I will get to prove that out hunting elk in a few weeks.

All of this was to find a lighter weight hunting carbine with adequate punch for elk out to 125 yards. I don't know if this helps at all, but as some data points of reference it might get you started.

Great post!

 

[Ol Bob]

Good stuff for sure.

 

[Spikebuck]

A few months old thread but but I am surprised that you have obtained good accuracy out of a slow twist (1:65) barrel shooting a conical. Could you please elaborate on your accuracy at 50 to 100 yards? I have entertained trying some conical(s) out of my .54 GPR but have read accuracy generally is not great out of such slower twist barrels.

First, a couple qualifiers: First...as I have stated, I never got good flight out of solid based bullets, even with a wad. Had to be hollow based skirt. Second, my Pedersoli rifles have relatively shallow square rifling. I would never begin to even fathom that my deep round groove barrels, even in 1-56, would accurately shoot a conical.

Since I haven't shot conicals for a decade I didn't have much for old marked up targets, but did find this one. Keep in mind that this target had sights adjusted to move the first 50 yard group left.

One of the first four marked "no adj" was high/right (could have been me). Two were right on top of each other @ 5 o'clock. One in the bull. All of those are dead deer. I adjusted the sight a bit. Shot one at 50 and one at 100 (probably held about 4" - 6" high for 100).

Notice the clean cut holes...no tumbling (which I did have with solid base bullets.)

Now...for comparison, here are a couple targets from the same rifle with PRB. Couple fliers...could be me or sometimes Hornady RB are manure...better grouping. Yellow target at bottom was my "is my rifle ready for deer hunting no bench rest" test for "am I ready?"

Net, conical or PRB...both worked for big game hunting at ranges most of us would shoot at. 1-65 twist .54 cal barrel.

Hopefully those give you an idea of what I was able to achieve.

 

[ETipp]

First, a couple qualifiers: First...as I have stated, I never got good flight out of solid based bullets, even with a wad. Had to be hollow based skirt. Second, my Pedersoli rifles have relatively shallow square rifling. I would never begin to even fathom that my deep round groove barrels, even in 1-56, would accurately shoot a conical.

Since I haven't shot conicals for a decade I didn't have much for old marked up targets, but did find this one. Keep in mind that this target had sights adjusted to move the first 50 yard group left.

View attachment 238983

One of the first four marked "no adj" was high/right (could have been me). Two were right on top of each other @ 5 o'clock. One in the bull. All of those are dead deer. I adjusted the sight a bit. Shot one at 50 and one at 100 (probably held about 4" - 6" high for 100).

Notice the clean cut holes...no tumbling (which I did have with solid base bullets.)

Now...for comparison, here are a couple targets from the same rifle with PRB. Couple fliers...could be me or sometimes Hornady RB are manure...better grouping. Yellow target at bottom was my "is my rifle ready for deer hunting no bench rest" test for "am I ready?"

Net, conical or PRB...both worked for big game hunting at ranges most of us would shoot at. 1-65 twist .54 cal barrel.

View attachment 238984
View attachment 238985

Hopefully those give you an idea of what I was able to achieve.

Interesting. I hope to put a few conical through my GPR this weekend. My guess is, it will depend on type of conical, velocity and particular rifle.

 

[waksupi]

Keep in mind, a larger wound channel kills slower than a smaller one. One over 1.5" causes muscle contraction, actually slowing bleeding. Under 1.5" tend to bleed faster, as the body tries to cleanse the wound. I recall seeing many deer shot with 12 gauge slugs over the years travel for miles, while those with shot with smaller diameter and less expansion generally killing in under 30 yards.

 

[Spikebuck]

Keep in mind, a larger wound channel kills slower than a smaller one. One over 1.5" causes muscle contraction, actually slowing bleeding. Under 1.5" tend to bleed faster, as the body tries to cleanse the wound. I recall seeing many deer shot with 12 gauge slugs over the years travel for miles, while those with shot with smaller diameter and less expansion generally killing in under 30 yards.

If someone shot a deer with a 12 GA and it went a long ways, it was bad shot placement or poor projectile performance.

I grew up and live in a shotgun-only area (for regular gun season). The 12 GA is the go-to firearm for the majority of hunters. If hit where they are supposed to be from a reasonable distance, it's a bang-flop DRT deal for most good hits...definitely under 100 yards run."
Same for bows or muzzleloaders. Good shot = short tracking job. Bad shot with big or small projectile = long tracking job.

 

[ETipp]

If someone shot a deer with a 12 GA and it went a long ways, it was bad shot placement or poor projectile performance.

I grew up and live in a shotgun-only area (for regular gun season). The 12 GA is the go-to firearm for the majority of hunters. If hit where they are supposed to be from a reasonable distance, it's a bang-flop DRT deal for most good hits...definitely under 100 yards run."
Same for bows or muzzleloaders. Good shot = short tracking job. Bad shot with big or small projectile = long tracking job.

Definitely not always true. There are many, many times that does not happen.

I can show you video after video of deer shot in the vitals with a RB and still ran a long ways. The last one I viewed the guy shot the deer through the heart and it still ran 100 yards +. The deer was calm and not spooked. Had no idea the hunter was there. Deer was shot with a .54 RB from 70 yards. Hunter tracked the deer, blood trail that Ray Charles could have followed, and the hunter gutted the deer showing the holes dead center of the heart.

I have viewed quite a few hunting videos of deer hit with RB and in most every one of them the deer ran quite a way. Many ran 100 yards or more. This is is not to say that some didn't fall quickly because some did fall fast.

In a different video a ML hunter was using an unmentionable with a large projectile. It showed the impact on a calm deer, deer ran out of sight in a large field. When the hunter finally found the deer, it was well past 100 yards with a very large exit hole. The bullet went straight through the vitals.

Indeed, a bad hit is a bad hit. But a good hit does not necessarily mean the critter will still not run quite a way.

 

[Spikebuck]

To me, 100 yards isn't a "long" blood trail. Big game can cover that distance in a few seconds. I am disputing that "miles and miles" is common with large projectiles where it would be a much shorter distance with a small projectile...hit location being the same.

That said the vast majority of my own heart/lung shot deer with arrows, round balls, or conicals have been down in 60 yards or less. I am a proponent of heavy arrows and my personal favorite .54 caliber for opening large wounds for major external blood loss. No "muscles" in lungs to constrict and on a solid full penetration heart/lung hit it's over in seconds. Hit only one lung and it can go on for a long time...an amazingly long time.

Anyway, just my experience seeing big game killed over more than 50 years. If the majority of people are seeing something different, then I'll consider myself blessed.

Side note: The buck I posted above with the conical that blew the heart apart made it 30 to 40 yards straight up a steep hillside. Big game animals are amazing.

 

[ETipp]

To me, 100 yards isn't a "long" blood trail. Big game can cover that distance in a few seconds. I am disputing that "miles and miles" is common with large projectiles where it would be a much shorter distance with a small projectile...hit location being the same.

That said the vast majority of my own heart/lung shot deer with arrows, round balls, or conicals have been down in 60 yards or less. I am a proponent of heavy arrows and my personal favorite .54 caliber for opening large wounds for major external blood loss. No "muscles" in lungs to constrict and on a solid full penetration heart/lung hit it's over in seconds. Hit only one lung and it can go on for a long time...an amazingly long time.

Anyway, just my experience seeing big game killed over more than 50 years. If the majority of people are seeing something different, then I'll consider myself blessed.

Side note: The buck I posted above with the conical that blew the heart apart made it 30 to 40 yards straight up a steep hillside. Big game animals are amazing.

Agree with some of that, especially what you contend about a smaller projectile.

I also absolutely agree with you on a one lung hit. Been there, done that one.

However, 100 yards is more than I want any critter to run. I've never had that happen with a large conical. Not once. Not saying it cannot or will not happen because strange things do occur. No two situations are the exact same on hit critters.

I also agree that an animal can run a long way after being hit. No one knows this more than us folks that have lived and hunted big mountains all our lives. In the mountains and/or steep terrain, a big game critter most often runs downhill after being hit, compounding the situation. Right below my house where I hunt, I have killed a ton of deer there, mostly with arrows. Its right at the top of the ridge and seldom has one went anywhere but straight down into that very steep hollow. It is thick down in there making it even worse. And I have to get them back out of there myself. The deer I have shot with my ML and Maxi Balls went only a few feet, just like all the others. Even elk.

That's the way I like it and what I strive for in steep/thick terrain. 100 yards is nothing in flat and/or open terrain. But 100 yards down into steep, thick place in the mountains seems like miles when one has to pack a critter out.

But I digress.

 

[chorizo]

Every bit of these observations are what is call "anecdotal evidence" Which means it happened "that time" and is not scientifically nor intentionally repeatable.

There is a damn good reason people went away from RB to conicals and it ain't because the round ball was a "magical killing round pill of death".

Shoot what you like and how you want. But you can keep you little round pills in your pocket. I opt for something that by all metrics kills better and not by magic.

 

[stikshooter]

I have a couple of guns that I would guess apparently have slightly larger bores towards the breech and conicals easily move off the powder charge after loading. You can actually hear them clunk as they move, for lack of a better word, as you raise and lower the muzzle. I don’t see the problem with patched roundballs or paper patched bullets in the same gun.

Know your gun.

Know your alloy ! If your conical moves with pure /try 40(lead) to 1 tin it will stay all day /35 -1 will start harder
(as cast) and get a pass thru @ further yardage @150-200 yds . Go to your range and try it , you will hunt conicals at least in my woods , big deer but not many and I know my sidelocks are excellent at that yardage with the appropriate (sighting system )for my Renegades ./Ed

 

[TheMadYankee]

Hey gang,

Just wanted everyone to know that I have not in fact abandoned this thread or forum . Anyone familiar with this region will know this summer's weather has been nothing short of ATROCIOUS. Chances to hit the range and not drown your powder stores has been rare. That said, I have some limited results from the other day that I'll be posting later tonight. Right now it's actually nice for a change and I'm going for a motorcycle ride through the mountains.

Be back shortly!

 

[TheMadYankee]

Ok, firsts thing's first, I'm eliminating the Hornady GPs from contention. We found them *extremely* difficult to load even with lubrication. Even when load8the bullets were severely deformed after justvthe starter ball.I never shot a 5 string with them, as even with a 3 shot group I could tell we were wasting our time. No consistent grouping to speak of.

After that, I tried messing around with the 350 T/C Maxim Hunters again. While the group wasn't great, there is a starting point here. What we did find is that these tend to shoot better from a fouled bore. See the attached picture. The top hole was the first shot. Bottom three are the following. This was a fairly typical result for 50 yards. Not awesome, but definitely usable for the time being. Load was 80 grains FFg Schutzen. 90 grains produced a larger group. I wanted to try 85-75-70 grain loads as well, but ran out of bullets and had to run from YET ANOTHER torrential rainstorm.

Obviously I still have much more work to do, I still want to test No Excuses, Parker Traditional hunters, as well as maybe some FFFg loads. But for now this does raise a question. Assuming this gun does agree with a fouled bore more, what's the groups method for hunting prep this way? How long can I get away with a fouled bore in season? Would it be better to fire a squib load the night before or the morning of? Also, I've heard some talk about felt wads. Are these worth looking into?

Thanks!

 

[chorizo]

Yes, felt wads help a lot. also look at your lube...Hard lube sheds unevenly and affects accuracy.

I have had great luck with the no excuses bullets in the Thumper Carbines I developed.

I shoot all my testing from a clean bore, swabbing out between shots with alcohol as I want the group to duplicate 3 round "clean bore, first shot" group.

 

[ETipp]

Ok, firsts thing's first, I'm eliminating the Hornady GPs from contention. We found them *extremely* difficult to load even with lubrication. Even when load8the bullets were severely deformed after justvthe starter ball.I never shot a 5 string with them, as even with a 3 shot group I could tell we were wasting our time. No consistent grouping to speak of.

After that, I tried messing around with the 350 T/C Maxim Hunters again. While the group wasn't great, there is a starting point here. What we did find is that these tend to shoot better from a fouled bore. See the attached picture. The top hole was the first shot. Bottom three are the following. This was a fairly typical result for 50 yards. Not awesome, but definitely usable for the time being. Load was 80 grains FFg Schutzen. 90 grains produced a larger group. I wanted to try 85-75-70 grain loads as well, but ran out of bullets and had to run from YET ANOTHER torrential rainstorm.

Obviously I still have much more work to do, I still want to test No Excuses, Parker Traditional hunters, as well as maybe some FFFg loads. But for now this does raise a question. Assuming this gun does agree with a fouled bore more, what's the groups method for hunting prep this way? How long can I get away with a fouled bore in season? Would it be better to fire a squib load the night before or the morning of? Also, I've heard some talk about felt wads. Are these worth looking into?

Thanks!

Wow, that's interesting. Hornady GPB out of my .50 New Englander are very accurate. Holes touching from 50 yards. They are a bit difficult to get started down the barrel, however.

Hope you can find the solution soon.

 

[chorizo]

I have found that this helps considerably to maintain the integrity of the HP and to seat the conical for the best accuracy..especially the Hornady GP hp

https://rmcoxyoke.com/product/rmc-universal-conical-bullet-starter/

 

[Ol Bob]

You might also take a look at No Excuses 50 cal bullets They offer a sizing pack to get the exact fit you want and a variety of nice conicals that have shown respectable accuracy in a variety of guns and twists.
https://www.muzzleloading-bullets.com/shop/

Do you find the the sizing pack worth the time and cost?