Civil War gun?

[Amikee]

Friend of mine just got a musket who was supposed to belong to his great great grandfather or so and was used in American Civil War. Manufacturer is unknown and no marks except for a few digits on the right side of the barrel partially hidden under the forearm part 1522. It's fairly short with barrel around 30", LOP 13". Caliber looks to be in the .60ish (.69?). This gun is fully operational.
Anyone has any ideas where this gun could be made at? Any information?

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

It is an Austrian M1854 Lorenz. That is, it started life as a Lorenz rifle musket of approximately .54 caliber with a 37 and 1/2 inch barrel. It has been shortened and the original front band was replaced, probably after it's military service, with what appears to be a US style muzzle cap from a M1855 Rifle Musket. The ramrod is also a civilian rod.

The Lorenz was heavily imported during the American Civil War by both sides, being second only to the Enfield P53 Rifle musket in importance among the imports.

 

[dcriner]

Notice the marking on the left side of the stock where a lock's sideplate once was. I'm thinking that this musket may have been restocked or heavily modified with various parts at some point.

 

[Amikee]

I thought it was Lorenz due to resemblence but wasn't sure. He wants to sell this gun because he's saving up for a custom flintlock. Any ideas what something like this could be worth? If they were imported in large quantities I'm guessing not much.

 

[dcriner]

More: something seems to be boogered with the grove for the ramrod - but, of course, as has been pointed out, the ramrod is not original. A civil war musket would not have been carried with the wiper/ball-removal screw attached to the muzzle end of the ramrod. There would have been a bullet ramming cup on the muzzle end of the ramrod. I think most, if not all, civil-war-era muskets had steel ramrods with the bullet rammer a permanent part of the ramrod?

Check the caliber accurately, preferably with an inside micrometer. Can you verify the existence of shallow rifling in the bore?

If the wiper/screw threads match the 1861 Springfield's ramrod, it might be worth $20 or so. The gun itself wouldn't be worth much, except as a nice wall-hanger. The family story about your ancestor carrying it in the civil war might enhance the value if there is documented evidence. Gun collectors have a saying: "Buy the gun, not the story." If this musket is important to you for family history, display it proudly, but don't expect to be compensated for that history in any auction value.

You said that the musket functions properly. I presume you mean that you have dry fired it. I wouldn't try to fire it in its present condition - due to the caliber uncertainty and some loose and missing fasteners here and there.

 

[Amikee]

Yes sir. Dry fired only. It's not mine, but a friend's of mine. He was told this story by one of his relatives. I don't buy it really, because Lorenz (if it is Lorenz) muskets were dressed in iron. I don't see any rifling in it, no. Ramrod appears to be a simple cut branch, that's about it. There was many Lorenz repros made in 1950s or so, and I personally believe this is one of those reproduction guns, just left in some cellar or barn for quite a few years. Another thing I realized, it doesn't have any US inspector proof marks, which in my opinion would make sense on importated gun. I send out some emails and photos to few people, so who knows. Perchaps it's a Mississippi and not Lorenz after all.......

 

[Zonie]

It might be one of Bannerman's reworked Civil War guns?

He bought up thousands of Military guns following the Civil War for penny's each and cut them down and rebored a lot of them so they could be used as shotguns.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Yes sir. Dry fired only. It's not mine, but a friend's of mine. He was told this story by one of his relatives. I don't buy it really, because Lorenz (if it is Lorenz) muskets were dressed in iron.

As is this one. Most, but not quite all CW era military firearms were mounted in iron.

I don't see any rifling in it, no.

Not terribly surprising, the gun was probably reamed smooth for hunting use at the same time the barrel was shortened.

Ramrod appears to be a simple cut branch, that's about it. There was many Lorenz repros made in 1950s or so, and I personally believe this is one of those reproduction guns, just left in some cellar or barn for quite a few years.

Personally, I have never heard of or seen a reproduction Lorenz from the 1950s or '60s, maybe someone else has? There is currently a badly done reproduction Lorenz that is made by "the usual suspects" in India, but that is all. They started coming out a couple of years ago. The Civil War reenacting community has been begging for a decent quality repop Lorenz for a long time.

Another thing I realized, it doesn't have any US inspector proof marks, which in my opinion would make sense on importated gun. I send out some emails and photos to few people, so who knows. Perchaps it's a Mississippi and not Lorenz after all.......

It is certainly not a Mississippi, the Lorenz is only vaguely similar to the brass mounted US M1841 Rifle, it is a shortened Lorenz Rifle Musket, the standard infantry weapon of the Austro-Hungarian Army.
Also, the arms imported during the American Civil War were rarely marked with inspector's or government property marks, no reason to. They had been inspected and stood proof in their nations of origin - England, Austria-Hungary, France, Prussia, etc. And examples were inspected by Confederate, Federal or State purchasing agents at the time of purchase. Some Confederate P53 Enfields were marked but those are nothing like the Lorenz and are very scarce.

 

[Amikee]

Thank you for the information. I got my info from Gregory Edington who used to sell Lorenz repros in kit form. There is a very large article on the web regarding Lorenz guns and him. And yes, I meant 1841 not mississippi. Thank you again. I'm interested in historic value of this gun, however the owner just in the value. Thank you

 

[hawkeye2]

Post your query here:
http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/forumdisplay.php/8-Civil-War-Small-Arms

The link is to the N-SSA small arms forum page where you should learn more than you might want to know about the firearm.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Thank you for the information. I got my info from Gregory Edington who used to sell Lorenz repros in kit form. There is a very large article on the web regarding Lorenz guns and him.

That's very interesting and I have seen the article. Mr. Eddington made a few kits back in the 1990s but the operation never got of the ground so there are very few of them out there. At the time he made them available, they were selling - as kits - for about the same price as a complete original Lorenz.

And yes, I meant 1841 not mississippi. Thank you again. I'm interested in historic value of this gun, however the owner just in the value. Thank you

The US M1841 Rifle is the "Mississippi Rifle".

As far as the historical value of the gun, it is one of the arms imported for use in the American Civil War but it has been altered and has lost it's originality so while it does have historical importance, the alterations have destroyed it's monetary value.

 

[Tumblernotch]

Virginia, I'm not 100% certain that this one was cut down from musket length. It would help if we had the exact barrel length. They did replace the front barrel band and of course the sideplate, but the thickness of the barrel at the muzzle looks right and the original bayonet lug/sight made for the quadrangle bayonet is there. How often do we see the original sight on a cut-down piece? Another thing I notice is the distance of the lower band from the breech is comparable to the Lorenz rifle. The band on the longer version should be closer. Pretty much the same comparison as that of the Enfield Rifle vs. the Enfield Rifle-Musket. I wish I still had my Lorenz so I could do some serious comparing.

It's certainly not worth a premium, but with a little work it would make an excellent reenactor's weapon and could be worth a couple-three hundred at least.

 

[Amikee]

Thank you gentlemen. I knew I would learn few new things again Here is what I received last night:

Mike,

I looked at your musket and what you have appears to be an "African Trade Musket". These muzzle loading muskets were made in Belgium from surplus musket parts in and made specifically for the African colonial trade from the 1900 to the 1960's. These muskets were sold for natives for hunting as they were not allowed to have breech loading rifles. Later in the 1950's through the 1960's they were imported from Europe and sold as decorator pieces in the US.

The musket shown appears to have an Enfield butt plate & Barrel Bands. Mike the nose cap and lock plate washers look to be from an M-1863 Colt rifle. The stock, barrel, lock, and trigger, trigger guard/plate are from a Lorenz M-1854 rifle musket. Enfield and Colt rifle musket parts were often used with partial Lorenz parts sets as the Lorenz was modeled after the Enfield and some items such as the nipple and some screws are interchangeable with the Lorenz or are easily fitted.

Mike the good news is the musket is an antique, the bad news is it's made of recycled civil war rifle musket parts that have been altered so it has no value as a Civil War Musket other than its individual parts. Mike as for a value if it's a functional smoothbore about $200 to $325 (the worth of single shot antique muzzloader) if it's rifled add $100 (300-425). I think it would look good over a mantle, or as a decorator piece.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

You may be right KR. I reread the original post by Mike and found that the barrel length is "around 30 inches", I had misread it to say 33 inches, my apologies Mike. And good eyes seeing the original front sight. Now, not knowing the barrel's exact measurement, it could have started life as one of several members of the Lorenz family, likely the M1854 Jagerstutzen which had a 28 inch barrel, very close to about 30 inches.

And Mike, your friend in his reply made an excellent point saying that it could have been reworked as an African Trade Musket. There are far too many other mods that I ignored in my hasty evaluation. The brass butt plate and the Enfield (or possibly Springfield?) bands certainly point that way as does the Springfield muzzle cap and side nail cups. These guns were reworked in Belgium where surplus guns often go to be reconditioned for resale or re-purposing. And since it probably not the much more common Lorenz Rifle Musket, your friend's price evaluation may be good, but it does seem to be a little high.

 

[Amikee]

Like I said many times before- thank God we have a forum like this. I'm in the beginning process of learning even though I shoot these muzzies for past 9 years. I promised that I'll look into it and I did. Thanks to you all for a great input and help with digging. Too bad less and less people are interested in the history of the firearms and more in the value of it. I will forward all the findings and comments to him. Thank you All again