How early were flintlocks being chopped down to shorter lengths?
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Chopped Flintlocks. How early?
- Thread starter 8541ss
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How much shorter?
About 1500 wheelocks were put on short rifles with crossbow style barrels
Around 1600 Central Europe adopted a butted stock for short rifles and by cr 1680 were building flintlock short rifles barrels about two and a half feet
American rifles before 1770 are really hard to document a full story. The Christian spring-Marshall-walking purchase rifle was about three foot barrel, and Isaac Hines made at least some of his Lancaster style rifles about 38”
By 1790 the English stared rifles in the three foot range, and half stock started becoming common. The American 1803 rifles was made at 33”, and about that time Ohio Michigan gun makers started making light short rifles first on full stock then half.
Connecticut stated making rifles about 1820 with short barrels half stock and wood under ribs
Westren fur trade rifles were made at about 42” but by 1830 we start to see three feet and less with full stocks and half
HBC cut down its trade guns over the years, by 1830 36” 32” and 30” were seen.
Long rifles would continue on southren rifles until WW2 and Belgium would continue to make long guns until the 1950s
I am mainly wondering about smoothbores. How early were the natives/Settlers chopping them down?
nchawkeye
58 Cal.
Pre 1800, seldom unless the breech was corroded or the barrel was damaged...
I think we tend to look at what we like today vs what was used back in the day...Barrels from 40-48 inches were the "norm" back then..Of course we know Jaegers were made shorter in the Old Country but we think that was more for games keepers carrying them on a sling...
I think we tend to look at what we like today vs what was used back in the day...Barrels from 40-48 inches were the "norm" back then..Of course we know Jaegers were made shorter in the Old Country but we think that was more for games keepers carrying them on a sling...
Pretty much followed the same time line. Mathlock military arms tended to be about three feet. The invention of bayonets made military guns spears that could shoot. And longer was better
Civilian followed the same rules .
Smoothbores on America were primarily militia arms
Then about 1790 we see a trend to shorten guns.
Double barrel started becoming popular and short was light. So even single barrels get short.
The time line is seen on trade guns where from about 46” in 1750 we see 30” eighty years later
Civilian followed the same rules .
Smoothbores on America were primarily militia arms
Then about 1790 we see a trend to shorten guns.
Double barrel started becoming popular and short was light. So even single barrels get short.
The time line is seen on trade guns where from about 46” in 1750 we see 30” eighty years later
So 30" trade guns existed around 1760 ish?
No, not as made until about 1830
During Pontiacs rebellion his warriors made blanket guns, cut off trade guns worn under women’s blankets so they could be snuck in to forts
Rodgers shortened some besses but we have no idea how short,
By 1790 Cherokee had gunsmiths who were rebuilding broken guns. These were not crude guys but educated skilled professionals who could write and read and speak several languages. Their skill would match a white smith.
No doubt some of these guns had bent barrels or worn out breeches and when rebuilt got a short barrel
However it was not a norm to saw off a barrel unless it was damaged in some way
Clark Badgett
40 Cal
From what documentation evidence exists. English trade muskets started shrinking once trade with horse mounted natives became common. There were shorter barrels early, but they were far less common than the longer barrels. So, for example, if 400 trade guns came over in 1760, most would be at or over 42”, but if that year is 1800 most would have been around 36”. Again this is an illustrative example and not actual numbers.
The French didn’t seem to bring over short barrels. Most of their trade guns were over 51”.
I misread eighty for eight.I gotcha!
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I'm sure it was done even earlier but the earliest date recorded that I am aware of is 1763 . Long trade guns were cut down very short to be snuck into Fort Michilimackinaw during Pontiacs rebellion .
Brokennock
Cannon
Brokennock
Cannon
Why do folks insist on smashing the square peg of what they like in modern arms into the round hole of historic arms?
Let's re-ask the question different ways (kinda like the FBI or NCIS) until we get the answer we want. Let us note be satisfied until we can justify and M4 length musket
Let's re-ask the question different ways (kinda like the FBI or NCIS) until we get the answer we want. Let us note be satisfied until we can justify and M4 length musket
It’s not. I misread 8 as I posted.
The question was simple. I’m trying to understand not change history.Why do folks insist on smashing the square peg of what they like in modern arms into the round hole of historic arms?
Let's re-ask the question different ways (kinda like the FBI or NCIS) until we get the answer we want. Let us note be satisfied until we can justify and M4 length musket
Reading is as important as math. I already admitted my fault. You can try again as well.
Cruzatte
50 Cal.
Why in the nation would some one who paid a season's earnings, or perhaps a year's wages for a gun, or rifled gun ruin a perfectly good arm by cutting it down?
But they did it. I’m trying to figure it out. The whys and when’s.Why in the nation would some one who paid a season's earnings, or perhaps a year's wages for a gun, or rifled gun ruin a perfectly good arm by cutting it down?
Cruzatte
50 Cal.
What a waste of time and resources. Unless of course the piece was damaged.
Clark Badgett
40 Cal
Well, it largely seems to have been centered around a particular tactical need or a repair need.
Trade guns got shorter for a fact. I just did not know when and why. I’m trying to get my facts straight about the matter. I’m not trying to change things. However, it seems some want to change the fact that it happened eventually. This is a simple conversation about the fact of the matter. I appreciate those of you who are being helpful.
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