Charging from a horn....

[Dave Rosenthal]

While I do agree it makes sense to charge from a measure. i.e. a consistent charge for consistent accuracy of rounds fired down range, the physics of powder burning do not lend to the idea of a horn, no matter the amount of powder contained, is equivalent to a WW2 hand grenade nor even a firecracker.... In order for blackpowder to "explode" it must be contained in a sealed container. By definition, charging from a horn, this is improbable as the act of pouring requires one end of the container to be open. When blackpowder is ignited it turns from solid to gas, this gas expands quickly and follows the path of least resistance (pushing the projectile out of the barrel). In order for a powderhorn to "explode" there must be an occlusion at the pouring end of the container and the gas expands to the point of...boom! Since pouring requires at least one end to be open, igniting the powder would, in essence, create a jet of fire and hot gas (as does a priming charge or percussion cap) a hazard to be sure but no explosion. Also, if one is using blackpowder topped by a patched roundball exactly what could be left down in the barrel that could be smoldering even seconds after a shot has been fired? A portion of the patch...unlikely as that would be pushed out of the muzzle. Errant particles of blackpowder, if they are glowing they are burinig...these would not smolder, burnt carbon residue, um...NO! AGAIN, I AM NOT ADVOCATING CHARGING FROM A HORN but the "logical" and "common sense" reasons really aren't.

O-K, just what are your intentions?

This train-wreck of a thread appears to be the case of you not believing EVERYBODY ELSE! You pull the pin on a grenade, toss it into a room full of people and expect no one to have a reaction? The folks that are here on this forum are not to be taken lightly. We are experts in this field. We don't deal in theoretical probabilities, we deal IN FACTS sir. Some of us have seen first-hand what can happen when powder is miss-handled, and have said so and yet you are in a state of denial.

At the clubs that my son and I belong to NO ONE is allowed to charge from a horn or a flask! If caught, you're DQ'd (disqualified) and sent home. Repeat performances gain you some "time off" from the range in the form of suspended range privileges or even expulsion from the club.

And since flasks don't come with carrying straps, I'll add this: NO ONE is allowed to fire over a loading table! A flask once got hit with a hot spark and blew-up on the loading table, burning the owner. Good thing that nobody was too close went it went off, and YES I'm not going to argue with anybody and say it didn't "go off"!

Safety is something that's never compromised! Please don't push your luck, theoretical or otherwise.

Dave

 

[paulvallandigham]

When I first started shooting Mlers, I too blew down the barrel to clear the embers. Later, I changed and now use a dampened cleaning patch to run down the barrel to douse the embers, and clean the bore. Both methods work. I learned to wrap my index finger over the muzzle so I didn't have to taste the BP residue( sulfur!) when I blew down the barrel.

The only reason I stopped blowing down the barrel was because the NRA Ten Commandments of Gun Safety include an admonishment to never point a gun at anything you don't intend to destroy. Because of that, I felt that blowing down my MLersd was setting a bad example for the kids who came to my club's public demonstrations of shooting MLers. We explained why we weren't blowing down the barrel to many adults who watched us, and those who had kids with them appreciated our concern and effort to show kids how to be safe with these guns.

I personally do not have any problem with members who blow down the barrel to clear the guns. I still have been known to do it when I am hunting alone. As long as you understand that there is another way to safely remove the fire hazard of unburned embers in the barrel, in addition to blowing down the barrel, You should be okay. :thumbsup:

 

[Shine]

WHAT! Do you think the walls of a powder horn are strong enough to hold back the pressure of a half pound of powder. While the exploding gas escapes out that little hole. A horn is hair. What going happen is pressure will back up in a millisecond, the sides will rupture at about 14000 feet per second. Your buddies will be looking for fingers to make cool stuff for the trade blanket. And you will manage to find some worries.Common sense man how big do you think the touch hole of a cannon is?

 

[Dphar]

WHAT! Do you think the walls of a powder horn are strong enough to hold back the pressure of a half pound of powder. While the exploding gas escapes out that little hole. A horn is hair. What going happen is pressure will back up in a millisecond, the sides will rupture at about 14000 feet per second. Your buddies will be looking for fingers to make cool stuff for the trade blanket. And you will manage to find some worries.Common sense man how big do you think the touch hole of a cannon is?

The horn will fail and scatter parts but it will usually be a low order explosion that is mostly flash. The thicker and stronger the container the worse the explosion will be. This is why heavy metal flasks are a no-no. Won't be like a hand grenade for example, BP does does not have the burn rate or energy.

Velocity of a bursting horn would be more like several hundred FPS, still bad enough. BP will not generate 14000 fps no matter what. This is H.E. class velocity.

I guess someone could buy a cheap horn and blow it up in a large cardboard box and see what occurs. You might need to clear this with local law enforcement first.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

There may be several "old wives tales" carried down over the years, but the possibility of a horn exploding while charging a just fired weapon isn't one of them. Black powder WIULL explode without being confined , not as violent as when it's confined , but burns rapidly enough to be deemed an explosion. Smokless powder will burn rapidly when ignited in the open but NORMALLY dosn't burn fast enough to be deemed an explosive.This fact is what makes the haz-mat restrictions so strict on black powder. One other factor is that the ignition tempeture of smokless islightly over 700 deg.f. and black powder is only 480 deg.f. Thease are the reasons black powder is designated an explosive and smokless a flamable. There is always the possibility of a glowing ember in the bore of a weapon that has been fired . Only about 46% of the black powder is converted to propellent gas, the rest is smoke particals and debris left in the bore. this debris is what cradles the glowing embers.
I'm not certain it was on thease forums but some one actually experimented with igniting at least two horns of black powder. The reason for the experiment was somone had the thought that if the plug was only glued instead of being pined the plug would blow out and the horn wouldn't EXPLODE. Not so.If i can find the post I'll post it here.In the meantime I woul caution you or anyone else NOT to charge directly from their horn.

A pound of FG poured on the ground with a trail of powder to it just goes "poof" not an explosion, no pressure wave at all. I have done this for 4th of July. Won't even move gravel.
You don't want to be close cause its hot. But without containment its just like a giant priming pan on a flintlock.
But contained even a little the pressure rises and then you get explosions with more "boom" as the strength of containment increases.
Charging directly from a horn/flask is not a good idea in any case.
Dan

 

[mykeal]

I posted the following in a thread about charging directly from the flask on this forum back in June:

I was present at an incident at an informal range in Kansas some 30 plus years ago. A flask was ignited when it was used to charge a longrifle. I was several yards away and looking downrange and only saw the flask go off out of the corner of my eye. There was a large boom followed by a whoosh and a large cloud of smoke, and the flask shot up in the air about 50 feet.

The shooter was badly burned on his hand and forearm; his face was burned but not as badly. His shirt was also burned. He was knocked off his feet and dazed. He was not responsive - I'm not sure he could hear. I didn't know who he was and don't know if he was permanently injured or not. I never saw him or any of the people he was with again.

The remains of the flask were recovered. It was a copper flask and had split along the seam on one side. The cover and spout were missing and not found. There is no way of knowing how much powder was in the flask when it went off.

My first thought was that the gun blew up, but I was very surprised to see it was not damaged. That's one thing I'm very sure of. One of his friends told another onlooker that he was loading the rifle when the gun went off.

I have no evidence to help my memory here. There was no newspaper report of the incident. I recall being scared to death when the flask went off. I believe he was loading the rifle directly from the flask, but it could be that I've imagined that from hearing about other like incidents. Like I said, I only saw it out of the corner of my eye. At the time I was sure the guy was dead, but I know he he left the area upright, although he had to be helped to a friend's car.

 

[hotsparks]

Dan
I've still got carbon inbedded in my left hand from stupid antics 45 years back with bottle rockets, I can't even imagine what it would be like to have that plasma wall of expanding gas enveloping my face, call it explosion or whatever you want, and I can't even imagine how that would change my life instantly and forever...and most importantly, the lives of those that love and depend on me. This is truely getting to be a train wreck of a thread, we are debating the technical definitation of an explosion, but regardless of if it is technically an explosion or not, and expanding wall of gas at some 1400 deg F heading at any part of your body is something we need to impress on "newbies" and aviod ourselves.
John

 

[Stumpkiller]

In order for blackpowder to "explode" it must be contained in a sealed container. By definition, charging from a horn, this is improbable as the act of pouring requires one end of the container to be open. When blackpowder is ignited it turns from solid to gas, this gas expands quickly and follows the path of least resistance (pushing the projectile out of the barrel). In order for a powderhorn to "explode" there must be an occlusion at the pouring end of the container and the gas expands to the point of...boom!

Take it from someone who has lived through a stupid youthful stage. Blackpowder will burn fast enough in trying to get out the 1/4" opening in a horn that it will give all appearances of an explosion. Including pieces of horn and wood plug being thrown 60 feet or more. A friend and I tried it on a home made horn that turned out too ugly to use. An empty CO2 cartridge even more so - not quite hand grenade but capable of astonishing damage. The horn would have easily hospitalized someone holding it with torn flesh and cooked body parts. I also got a surprise at an Order of the Arrow ceremony when I tossed a handful of flash powder into a fire not realizing much was sticking to my sweaty palm. "FOOSH" and watch the guy in costume do the flaming hand dance. But better to have seared piddies from a measure-full going off at your chest (hopefully with the muzzle held leaning away from your face) than being engulfed in a flash from an exploding powder horn. I like being able to see out of my eyes, thanks all the same.

Black powder burns VERY fast and does so whether under pressure (contained) or not; unlike smokeless powder.

As for a WWII grenade. Fill it with water and freeze it and you get a similar though less impressive explosion. They are built to fracture suddenly and generate shrapnel. Horns are the opposite - used because they split, melt and make flimsey shards.

 

[Dphar]

I was reading a thread on the movie Jeremiah Johnson and a comment was made about Redford pouring powder directly from the horn and being "lucky he still has his hands". That got me thinking.... if there is an errant smoldering whatever in the barrel, how does pouring from a measure keep the powder from igniting but pouring from a horn is a disaster waiting to happen? I realize that I haven't been doing this long, off and on for about 25 years, but I have never seen or heard of a 1st hand account of someone having their powder ignite while charging from a powder measure. Not trying to start a fight or be an *4th point of contact* just one of those HHmmmm moments for me :v

In a clean gun with only a shot or two or 5 fired the chances of an "errant" spark are pretty remote. The ones I have heard of where the gun was examined afterwards indicate excessive build up of fouling in the breech.
If circumstances required I would not hesitate to pour right from the horn but this is not likely to happen unless I have something trying to kill me.

In this case a paper cartridge made right will load a rifle faster something everyone should experiment with. I have not tried this with the 50 and 54 yet but it works very well with the 16 bore rifle. Shoots point of aim to 50 yards plus and reload time is drastically reduced.
Tapered cartridge, no patch. Tear off the small end place in muzzle ram, cap or prime. Paper around the ball forms the patch. But paper thickness must be adjusted to allow loading. Paper grips the rifling and comes off the ball at the muzzle.

Dan

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

FWIW I just saw one happen last week! At least on TV, as on "Mail Call", R. Lee Emery (sp?) was having a friend shoot a mzl'dr Civil War Springfield as fast as he could, loading from paper cartridges.

Right before his 2nd shot, just after he poured the powder down and just moved his hand... WHOOSH, a flame jetted out of the barrel about 3'!

 

[nkbj]

Somebody will probably remember this one. When we kids there was a comic book series about the good guys fighting against the evil red coats. In one episode one particularly evil red coat threw a powder horn grenade into where a good guy was. So, we naturally had to try that stuff out. Didn't have a powder horn so we made do with 6 1/2 oz Dr.Pepper bottles. Amazing what kids live through...
Any way the real reason for this entry is to say that powder is three quarters salt peter. When it gets hot it melts along with the sulfur. Makes a burning liquid gaseous oxidizing mess on anybody it meets. And, it and lube forms carbon impregnated clinkers that can keep going for a bit.

 

[noworries]

Snide, condescending comments aside my basic premise still stands... NO ONE has stated they had a first person, i.e. happened to you, incident of powder igniting while charging a rifle. NO ONE has had a first person account or witnesses an incident of a horn, flask etc while charging a weapon ignite and blow off any body part or portion thereof. Flash burns yes...I will concede that but blackpowder does not explode when a loosely grouped amount is ignited. It is a propellant not an explosive. Can a horn explode...sure... however the fuller the horn the less chance as there is less volume for the gas to expand in stressing the vessel causing a catastrophic failure...an explosion. Blackpowder has an RE factor of about .5, Dynamite is .94 and TNT is 1.0. Blackpowder has an EXTREMELY LOW brissiance, it pushes, not shatters and yes it burns. My original intent of this was why is it ok to pour powder from a measure but not a horn. We stand on a firing line and without a second thought pour 50, 75, 100gr or more down the barrel but even mention the cardinal sin of pouring from an horn and suddenly there is no word strong enough to describe how stupid you are. And why? Because someone somewhere at sometime told you not to so ok you run with it. You say my logic is flawed ok, it is but how does that change the fact that the instances of powder actually igniting in a horn, flask, on the ground or where ever were only 2 or 3 in several decades of experience.

Lastly, if the purpose of this or any forum is to only discuss subjects where everyone is in agreement whats the point? At no time have I stated charging from a horn is ok, safe or even a good idea, why tempt fate. But using the reason that doing so will blow your hands off or it is the equivalent of a WWII fragmentation grenade doesn't cut it. If you think my ideas are wrong...cool, persuade me with your facts. It is not a bad thing to ask "why" If more people would do that maybe Nov. '08 would have had a different outcome.

 

[LaBonte]

Accident 1
Troy Rope of Stonewall Creek Outfitters in Concord VA was recently injured when a primer flask ignited while testing a lock.
Troy was badly injured while testing a lock he had been working on Saturday morning. The priming flask exploded in his hand. He has had two operations for skin grafts and pins at UVA. He has lost his left index finger(he's left handed), most of his thumb and part of his middle finger. He was also badly burned on his right hand.
it was a commercial pan primer, and Troy was testing a lock by itself, not on a gun. The primer was in his left hand, and he was manually actuating the lock to check function, thus the primer was in close proximity to the lock at the time of the accident. This was recently reported on another forum.
2. I personally witnessed a cook off some years ago while reloading. The powder was down the barrel and he was pushing the load home - a piece of the ramroad pierced his hand which was severely burned as well. Otehr folks I know such as Wick Ellerbe have witnessed a similar injury.
3. Recently reported on another forum was a man injured when his horn exploded after apparently the plug was left out of the horn and upon firing a spark entered the horn causing sudden and complete detontation.

As to a horn not having enough air space when filled to cause an explosion - balderdash. I worked for years in demolition and it just ain't so - don't believe me go make a pipe bomb and test your theories...snide remarks - no just plain good sense - and BTW I don't know of a professional demo engineer who considers black powder a propellant alone - it is in fact a low grade explosive, no it is not in the same class as high explosives such as TNT but it is a good low grade explosive.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Dan: YOu are just wrong about black powder in the open air. My friend managed to dump his powder out the bottom of his horn, twice in about 10 minutes. The first time, He had about 1/3 lb. of powder on the ground. When I fired my gun with a blank charge into it, it simply burned, like a fuse, leaving a long trail of white smoke rising up through the trees. The second time he dumped the rest of the powder- more than 1/2 lb-- and I again fired the new pile with another blank charge fired out my flintlock, the pile Exploded!

I can't tell you how loud it was, because I was so close that i lost my hearing temporarily, but it was loud enough that everyone in camp- many yards away, came running, fearing that someone had been seriously hurt. Other than singed eye browns, and singed hair on my forearms, I was okay. My friend, Rip, also was okay, as he was standing further away from the pile when the explosion occurred.

Black powder can be "funny stuff", and will surprise you. It can and will explode- I am a surviving testimonial to that fact!-- even if burned in the open air. I think it has to do with how much a fire is set to the pile at once. The only difference I remember in how I fired the two piles, beside the amount of powder, was that I held my barrel to the side of the first pile, which burned, while I pointed my muzzle at the middle of the second pile, which Exploded.

I hope this helps other people avoid my mistake. :idunno: :hatsoff:

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Snide, condescending comments aside my basic premise still stands... NO ONE has stated they had a first person, i.e. happened to you, incident of powder igniting while charging a rifle. NO ONE has had a first person account or witnesses an incident of a horn, flask etc while charging a weapon ignite and blow off any body part or portion thereof. Flash burns yes...I will concede that but blackpowder does not explode when a loosely grouped amount is ignited. It is a propellant not an explosive. Can a horn explode...sure... however the fuller the horn the less chance as there is less volume for the gas to expand in stressing the vessel causing a catastrophic failure...an explosion. Blackpowder has an RE factor of about .5, Dynamite is .94 and TNT is 1.0. Blackpowder has an EXTREMELY LOW brissiance, it pushes, not shatters and yes it burns. My original intent of this was why is it ok to pour powder from a measure but not a horn. We stand on a firing line and without a second thought pour 50, 75, 100gr or more down the barrel but even mention the cardinal sin of pouring from an horn and suddenly there is no word strong enough to describe how stupid you are. And why? Because someone somewhere at sometime told you not to so ok you run with it. You say my logic is flawed ok, it is but how does that change the fact that the instances of powder actually igniting in a horn, flask, on the ground or where ever were only 2 or 3 in several decades of experience.

Lastly, if the purpose of this or any forum is to only discuss subjects where everyone is in agreement whats the point? At no time have I stated charging from a horn is ok, safe or even a good idea, why tempt fate. But using the reason that doing so will blow your hands off or it is the equivalent of a WWII fragmentation grenade doesn't cut it. If you think my ideas are wrong...cool, persuade me with your facts. It is not a bad thing to ask "why" If more people would do that maybe Nov. '08 would have had a different outcome.

We've had several first-person accounts stated here now.

Your original intent was to ask whether or not using a powder measure with 100 grains was safer than an entire horn/flask? Your question was asked and answered!

Our job on this forum ISN'T to persuade instigators who make comments and then want everyone here to "jump" on the keyboard. This forum doesn't exist for "DEBATE". It's more like a dictionary, an encyclopedia, and a warm camp fire where friends gather to help each other. In short, we don't have time for instigators.

As for the reference to Nov. 08--there are places where we discuss politics, and it's not here!

I don't think that anyone on this forum is interested in how explosive a low-grade explosive is, and whether or not to deliberately miss-handle same in an effort to cause a problem. We all enjoy this great sport of ours and always teach others to be safe. Please be safe and enjoy our sport.

Dave

 

I'm glad you changed your ways . Blowing down a muzzle pure insanity.

 

[Shine]

Dump some powder on a lit candle from a powder horn. I'll watch, it will be fun. :thumbsup:

 

[noworries]

Snide, condescending comments aside my basic premise still stands... NO ONE has stated they had a first person, i.e. happened to you, incident of powder igniting while charging a rifle. NO ONE has had a first person account or witnesses an incident of a horn, flask etc while charging a weapon ignite and blow off any body part or portion thereof. Flash burns yes...I will concede that but blackpowder does not explode when a loosely grouped amount is ignited. It is a propellant not an explosive. Can a horn explode...sure... however the fuller the horn the less chance as there is less volume for the gas to expand in stressing the vessel causing a catastrophic failure...an explosion. Blackpowder has an RE factor of about .5, Dynamite is .94 and TNT is 1.0. Blackpowder has an EXTREMELY LOW brissiance, it pushes, not shatters and yes it burns. My original intent of this was why is it ok to pour powder from a measure but not a horn. We stand on a firing line and without a second thought pour 50, 75, 100gr or more down the barrel but even mention the cardinal sin of pouring from an horn and suddenly there is no word strong enough to describe how stupid you are. And why? Because someone somewhere at sometime told you not to so ok you run with it. You say my logic is flawed ok, it is but how does that change the fact that the instances of powder actually igniting in a horn, flask, on the ground or where ever were only 2 or 3 in several decades of experience.

Lastly, if the purpose of this or any forum is to only discuss subjects where everyone is in agreement whats the point? At no time have I stated charging from a horn is ok, safe or even a good idea, why tempt fate. But using the reason that doing so will blow your hands off or it is the equivalent of a WWII fragmentation grenade doesn't cut it. If you think my ideas are wrong...cool, persuade me with your facts. It is not a bad thing to ask "why" If more people would do that maybe Nov. '08 would have had a different outcome.

We've had several first-person accounts stated here now.

Your original intent was to ask whether or not using a powder measure with 100 grains was safer than an entire horn/flask? Your question was asked and answered!

Our job on this forum ISN'T to persuade instigators who make comments and then want everyone here to "jump" on the keyboard. This forum doesn't exist for "DEBATE". It's more like a dictionary, an encyclopedia, and a warm camp fire where friends gather to help each other. In short, we don't have time for instigators.

As for the reference to Nov. 08--there are places where we discuss politics, and it's not here!

I don't think that anyone on this forum is interested in how explosive a low-grade explosive is, and whether or not to deliberately miss-handle same in an effort to cause a problem. We all enjoy this great sport of ours and always teach others to be safe. Please be safe and enjoy our sport.

Dave

My original intent was NOT to ask if using a powder measure with 100 gr was...etc. and had you read it you would know that. Now..my Mia-Culpa ...YOU are right, I am 100% wrong....I know nothing and the only correct way to do anything is the way those of you whose "job" it is here to guide the rest (read that, me) of us. No subject of contention should EVER be posted because the guru's don't like it. Name calling and bullying is the correct way to deal with those who dare speak out against you, Misleading and incorrect information, say, the pesky "technical" difference
between explosion and flash or being burnt as opposed to maimed is ok "if it will save just 1 person" I defer to your knowledge and whatever :surrender:

 

[tg]

"Blowing down a muzzle pure insanity."

That is a ridiculus statement, it was common practice for years untill uncalled for paranoia and attorneys (no offense Tom)ran rampant thru the ML community,How many times have folks removed the bolt and looked down the bore of a centerfire? again I will not dignify such foolish comments on the forums time any further.

 

[Dphar]

Dan
I've still got carbon inbedded in my left hand from stupid antics 45 years back with bottle rockets, I can't even imagine what it would be like to have that plasma wall of expanding gas enveloping my face, call it explosion or whatever you want, and I can't even imagine how that would change my life instantly and forever...and most importantly, the lives of those that love and depend on me. This is truely getting to be a train wreck of a thread, we are debating the technical definitation of an explosion, but regardless of if it is technically an explosion or not, and expanding wall of gas at some 1400 deg F heading at any part of your body is something we need to impress on "newbies" and aviod ourselves.
John

One side of my face turned red from the flash burn from fffg BTDT. I started BP shooting young and did some dumb stuff :shocked2: I somehow avoided the embedded fouling/powder granule problem. Long story involving youthful ignorance and stupidity.
The key here is STUPIDITY.
I would suggest that every incident or accident related here was the result of "human error".

I have been told, buy a dealer/shooter who bought the powder left over from the tests, that one of the center bottles of blackpowder in a case can be fused and ignited and it will not set off the entire case only 2-3 bottles, most of the bottles are simply tossed about. This testing was done at Western Powder and he bought the scorched bottles cheap. Powder was unharmed as far as he could tell.

Yes, YES, YES!, we have to be careful. Yes, a person can be badly burned by the flash of BP if too near the flame, I know people who have been seriously burned by a moment of inattention. If the powder is contained much at all there can be blast or fragment injury increasing in severity as the strength of the container increases. Thus a horn or thin sheet metal flask has been the choice for centuries.

Gasoline is dangerous as heck and it, the fumes at least, will ignite from a static spark and BP will not.

There was an entire semi-load of BP flipped on its side on a freeway in a large city not so long ago, they simply off loaded the cases of powder and hauled them away. Gas tanker flips over?

Yes, people can be and have been hurt in BP accidents. But very simple safety measures like not loading direct from the container, keeping the horn stopper in, DO NOT PUT IT ON A STRING put it back in the horn MAKE IT A HABIT, make sure the stopper fits tight enough to seal and never come adrift, not wearing a powder container when tending a fire (especially unstoppered, yes its caused at least one "accident" I have read), not using thick wall metal containers/flasks, don't use cheap leaky flask heads (buy the high end English), not buying cheap, sloppily made equipment in general and THINKING will drastically increase the safety level. Its not rocket science.

I read of a "reenactor" who wrote he would not knowingly be near a "loaded" powder horn. Silliness and this is the mindset I am trying to address here.
A powder horn is *not* a hand grenade or a stick dynamite (both of which I have some experience with) in its explosive/destructive power, its certainly not any more dangerous, indeed perhaps safer, than a jug of lawn mower gas (potential weapon of mass destruction, google "Happy Land fire"). Both BP and gas are potentially life threatening but both are safe if *proper care* is taken.
All over the country people have difficulty obtaining BP. So wringing our hands and comparing powder horns to hand grenades is neither factual or helpful and borders on the propaganda we face everyday in trying to maintain our right to bear arms.
Only explosive dealers can sell BP etc when virtually no BP had been "lost" or unaccounted for and its a very poor explosive compared to other readily available products. Haz-mat shipping fees (now $25 a box not matter its size) when there have been no incidents to require extra care and in fact so far as I can tell no extra care is being taken, are drastically increasing the cost of ALL powder, primers and ammunition. None of this is an accident, nor is it justified, it is a means to an end, however.

Any BP shooter/reenactor that travels on a public road to a shoot or event is far more likely to get killed or injured on the road than by having some BP container erupt.
People will get in a car with 15-40 gallons of gas on board with numerous ignition sources then drive on the road with similar vehicles with 140 mile per hour closing speeds passing within 4 feet of each other and talk on a their cell phone or read a newspaper or book (yes I have seen people running on I-90 at 75+- with a book propped up in the steering wheel or reading a paper) will then arrive at some event and then avoid powder horns because they are dangerous?

We need to get real here. Recognize that we must take PRECAUTIONS and practice due diligence in handling powder and also in selecting our equipment and NOT buy the cheapest things we can find.

Dan