caplock to flintlock

[david50]

i have two Dixie Gun Works Tennessee Mountain rifles one is .32cal and one is a .50cal they are both caplocks,how hard would it be to convert them to flintlocks,what all is involved...thanks

 

[mrbortlein]

David,
It's not hard to convert, just easy to mess up the stock. The hardest part is getting the touch hole to line up with the new pan on the flintlock. The placement has to be centered and in the bottom of the pan so that the primer ignites the charge in the barrel. It's easy to get a replacement touch hole liner to fit the barrel, just get one that matches the threads of the drum from the percussion nipple. If at all possible, get a lock from the same company that made the rest of the gun. Hope this helped, and didn't scare you away from taking on this project, Have fun with it.
mrbortlein

 

[paulvallandigham]

NO! NO! NO! Don't put a touch hole in the bottom of any pan!!!!!

You want the touch hole at least .030" above the top edge of the pan. The heat of the flame is NOT at the bottom. Its above the bottom of the flame. Its the heat that ignites your powder charge, not the flame. Look at a candle that is lit. Study it. It actually has a cone of empty air in the middle of the flame, beginning at the top of the wick, and rising above it to a point where all the sides come together. The candle is burning gases created by heating the wick and wax up high enough to convert solid oils to gas. The hottest part of the flame is actually above it.

The fire in the flash pan is the same. All the heat is above the floor of the pan, where the air is rushing in to feel the fire. To speed ignition, use a pick to poke a hole in the main charge, pushing it through the vent hole, so that there is room for heat to reach several granules of powder in the chamber at the same time. The extra air left in the chamber by poking a hole in the powder charge DRAWS the heat from the flash into the vent and to the powder.

You may have to do what I did when I converted my percussion rifle to flint. We plugged the drum hole with a piece of steel rod, tapped to screw into the hole, and then welded, and filed flush. Then we located the hole for the vent liner and drilled and tapped the the barrel in a slightly new location, so that the vent hole is in the right position. I would have to show you where part of the original " Plug " is located, it is that seamless, when done right.

 

[Samuel]

David
Dixie list's the conversion kits in their 2006 catalog pg.25 they include a Flint Lock and a Touchhole liner to replace the drum in the barrel,
Now the Dixie Locks are OK ---But I had at one time one of the 32cal.models and I put a L&R Replacement Lock on it. the lock time was much better. If I was you and I wanted to try this, I would order the L&R replacment lock and a touchhole liner for one or the other of your rifles and see how this works for you.
Dixie sayes that for the 50cal you need a 5/16x24 touchhole vent and for the 32 cal.you need a 1/4x28 vent the locks are interchangable. and you can go back to percussion if you want.
I hope this helps, E-mail me if you need more help with this we may just live down the Road?
Samuel

 

[DougMPhoto]

To place a touch hole a straight line across the flats of the pan should split the center of the touch hole. Or if not spilt by this line be just slightly below it. A hole placed too low will tend to get covered with powder causing erratic/slow ignition, too high can also cause erratic ignition by blocking some of the heat flash.

Have seen this in books on building and have heard from several builders.

"Muzzlelblasts"[url] http://www.muzzleblasts.com/archives/vol4no4/articles/mbo44-3.html[/url]

 

[paulvallandigham]

I have been working with flintlocks for almost 30 years. Locating the touch hole .030 above the top line( draw a line across the top flat of the pan) is the best location for quick ignition. Any higher, and you have ignition problems. Any lower, and you have ignition problems. I have a flintlock where the hole splits the top line of the pan. I have to use less than a full pan of powder, and bank it away from the touch hole to get my desired ignition. I didn't know any better when that gun was built.

Since then, I have acquired a fowler built by a gun maker who has been building flintlocks since he was 14 years old, and he's now in his 50s. He put my touch hole above the pan. I asked him why as soon as I saw it, and he explained that he wanted me to have a full pan of powder to insure ignition by having a large target for the sparks to hit. He had also widened the pan making it shallow(er), and polished it for easy cleaning. The widening increases the target size more, and lets you shoot the flint longer before the sparks start hitting short of the pan. I don't have to move my flint forward as often as I do with my older rifle.

After shooting my fowler, I have become a believer. Having the touch hole that much above the pan allows the pan to be full, and the heat of the flash to be in the right location to enter the vent. My gunmaker knows what he's talking about. Oh, he shoots, and hunts almost exclusively with his flintlocks. He does mind percussion guns, but thinks they are entirely unnecessary.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Poor analogy Paul. A candle wick requires oxygen to burn and yes, the cone of flame does converge to maximize the heat at some distance above the wick. Gunpowder contains it's own oxidizer and requires no air to burn. The flash of powder in the pan is ball shaped, or would be if not deflected by the pan, barrel and lock parts. The hottest part of the flash is in the center of the fireball which rebounds from the pan bottom and is therefore most concentrated just above the bottom.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Joe: I am not going to argue with you. I have shot both kinds of touch holes, and I know what works the fastest. You do what you want. That is why this is a free country.

If you slow mo the flash or burn of any gun powder, you find that it burns the same way that the candle does. The heat is above the fuel, with air drawn in from below. I thought my 1/2 above, 1/2 below the top line of the flash pan rifle was the fastest way to fire a flintlock. My gunmaker made me-- emphasize MADE ME--- try it his way. ( That was in 2004.) I was very surprised at the result, and my fowler, even with a smaller vent hole, fires faster than my rifle. I didn't think it was possible, to be frank with you. I still get distracted by how quickly I get ignition with my fowler every time I shoot it. I am sure that is because I have been shooting my rifle for so many more years, and winning contests with it.

A long time barrel maker, and Florida northern State Rep. for the NMLRA, Phil Quaglino, has been working with my brother, buidling some underhammer guns. He also ascribes to placing the touch hole .030" above the top live of the pan, for the same reasons.

There is always something new to learn in this sport, and even an old F#$T like me can learn something new if he lives long enough. :thumbsup:

 

[cdg]

Air doesn't get drawn into a flash pan, as gunpowder is its own oxidant. Recall that gunpowder is an explosive that does not rely on atmospheric oxygen to sustain the reaction that takes place.
[url] http://www.royalarmouries.org/extsite/view.jsp?sectionId=2920[/url]
[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_powder[/url]
[url] http://cavemanchemistry.com/cavebook/chgunpowder2.html[/url]

If you don't believe those links, ask a chemist or high school chemistry teacher and they will say the same thing.

I'm not saying your wrong about the placement of the touch hole, however.

As for the candle analogy, I'm still trying to find some good freeze frames to check that out. Anybody have any good links?

 

[xxgrampa]

greetings paul,

did you say a full pan of powder??

thanks.. tt.g..

 

[paulvallandigham]

CDG: Yes Black powder makes its own oxygen, and can burn in a closed container that admits no additional oxygen. But that is only part of the story about how a flintlock fires.

I have to assume that you have seen blacksmiths using bellows to blow air on coals to increase the heat of the fire to forging temperatures. Now, that fire has all the oxygen it needs to burn from just the air above and around the coals. So, why do we have to ADD air to the fire? If your comment is the only relevant one, the answer would be that a bellows is a waste of time.

We know that is not true. Its also not true that adding air to the chamber in a flintlock is a waste of time.

Fire is a temperature sensitive form of oxidation. But she is a greedy lady, and loves more air. Give fire air, and she gets hotter, and hotter.

We can give fire more air several ways, but not in the barrel of a flintlock. We can suck the air in by creating a chimney that will use the column of rising hot air, to draw in more oxygen to the fire below. We can slant the sides of the chimney, like the top of a Cheyenne Style Tipi, so that as the warm air rises, it has to go through a smaller and smaller area, making it move faster, and creating a vacuum below that sucks in air to the fire. Both are passive systems that require no energy to pump air to the fire. We don't need bellows, or an oxygen tank, under pressure, to send oxygen to mix with a gase to produce hot fires.

And those methods won't work in a flintlock barrel, either. But they do work to produce a hotter fire.

The secret to igniting black powder in a flintlock barrel is to understand that like any fire, the chamber will burn the powder more quickly if there is More Oxygen in the barrel, the same as sucking it into a tipi, or chimney, or blowing it into the fire with a bellows. Since the breech of a flintlock is closed except for the vent hole, and we need that hole to be small to control escaping gases when the powder burns, we are kind of stuck on the ways to get more oxygen to that fire we want to build in the barrel.

My way is to use coarser powder( 2Fg instead of 3Fg) because the spaces between granules are larger and therefore hold more " free " oxygen. I do not recommend compressing the powder, as that would defeat the purpose of using the larger granule size of powder to gain more air. AND, I load the powder loose in the barrel, seating the ball on the powder but not crushing or compacting it in any way. That is done by marking the ramrod and always loading to the " mark ". Finally, I poke a hole in the powder charge pushing a vent pick through the touch hole before I prime the gun. This opens a hole in the powder to allow lots of granules to be ignited by the heat I generate from the flame from the flash powder being ignited next to the touch hole. That hole also provides that fire in my flash pan with some " free " oxygen, and being a greedy lady, the heat and flame go after that oxygen like a baby after warm mother's milk. Instead of igniting one or two granules of powder at the vent hole opening, and then waiting for the " fuse effect " to get the charge in the barrel burning, my way gets a lot of " fuses " going all at once. They in turn go after all that extra oxygen, and internal ignition time is shortened substantially.

I have had percussion rifle shooters come down the firing line to ask me if I had switched my fintlock for a percussion gun, because of how fast my flintlock goes off. When I show them I am shooting a flinter, they hang around to find out how I am able to get it to go off so fast, and watch the gun fire. ( kBOOM!, not F-f-f-sh-sh-sh-BOOM!)

I have had this discussion with other shooters, and even other long time flint shooters. Its not until they actually hear my gun go off that they begin to understand that my idea of " fast ignition " is a lot different than what they have accepted as " fast " ignition. When they try it my way, they go home much happier, and usually having shot much better scores.

Comparing velocities using the same amount of powder in a percussion gun of the same caliber, and comparing it to velocities of the same powder charge in a flintlock, the velocity in the flint gun will be less. You solve that by adding some more powder, rarely more than an additional 5-10 grains. In percussion guns, I recommend using 3Fg, and compressing the loads. The priming cap injects fire into the powder, and it fires the most consistently if you compact the powder. With flint guns, loose powder and lots of air seems to give the fastest ignition and the lowest SDV.

They are two Very Different Systems of Ignition, and the sooner shooters understand that, the easier they will find shooting flintlocks to be.

But, opinions differ. Have it your way. I use science as a tool; not as a brick wall that stops all further thought.I don't like just accepting " problems": I prefer to solve them. :hmm:

 

[Titus]

Paul, very very interesting info. :hatsoff:

 

[david50]

Dixie Gun Works no longer carrys the conversion kits, i can get locks from L&R but i have no idea what the thread size would be for the touch hole liners.i can get them from TOW if i new the size,any body know...thanks

 

[david50]

paul,you say the touch hole needs to be at least .030 above the edge of the pan but isnt it going to line up pretty much wherever the lock happens to set when screwed in,theres no way to adjust it is there.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Most poeple drill the touch hole last. That is how you set the vent at the correct height in relation to the lock. If you drill the barrel for the vent before you fit the lock, you are going to have problems. Its a lot harder to move a drill bit, than to move an entire lock mortise!

 

[cdg]

Perhaps you are correct - I can't claim to know for sure. However, if the chemical equations are balanced correctly, atmospheric oxygen is theoretically irrelevant to the ignition of black powder. I'd like to honestly find out if the burn rate of black powder is actually faster in an oxygen rich environment, and if it is actually inhibited by vacuum. It's not a brick wall to me either, Paul - it's a way to test your theories before you write them as laws.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The presense of oxygen does not make the black powder burn faster. It helps the heat spread, and the pressure rise in the chamber, thereby helping internal ignition to speed up. You are thinking in terms of individual granules. I am working with an entire load of hundreds of granules, all of which I would like to get burning at once. Once each granule reaches flashpoint, it will burn at basically the same rate with or without the extra oxygen.

The oxygen that I am leaving in the chamber is there to help spread the fire to all the granules of powder, and in that way to speed up internal ignition. As more granules burn and create gas, the volume of gas rises in the chamber faster than it can escape out the vent, and as the volume rises, pressure rises in the chamber as well. All this results in firing the ball faster than if we load the barrel as if its a percussion gun. Percussion guns don't need help getting fire to all the granules. It injects a long flame into and through the powder, igniting the powder quickly. Flintlocks don't inject anything, but work like a fuse, burning from one granule to another.

Your choice, as a shooter, is to burn one granule at the opening of the vent, and wait for the fuse to finally ignite enough powder to fire the gun. Very slow internal ignition. Makes you wonder why you wasted money buying a good lock to start the fire.

Or, you can load the powder in the chamber as I describe, leaving a hole in the back of the charge from the vent so that lots of granules get ignited all at the same time. Then you have lots of fuses buring inside the chamber, causing lots of chain reactions. With more air between granules, the fire and heat spread throughout the charge faster.

You can see this in a farrier's forge, where the guyere is located in the middle of a stack of charcoal. If the coal are large pieces, there is a lot of air space between them to allow air to flow in and around. Turn on the blower, or crank the handle, and you will see the air come up and around the coal all the way to the outside edges. However, if you use tiny bits of charcoal, they allow much less air to get through, and you get a fire going on the bottom of the stack, and it takes longer to get the top of the stack of coal lit and burning. Change the size of the pipe from your blower, and you get a smaller fire. Oh, it will heat up eventually , and produce a hot fire, but it will take longer, than if the pipe is a good size to admit a lot of air.

 

[david50]

dont you use the hole where the nipple drum screwed it for the touch hole liner

 

[paulvallandigham]

Not unless that hole is positioned correctly. If it isn't, as it was NOT in my percussion gun that I converted to Flint, we treaded a piece of drill rod and screwed it into the hold as a plug. We welded it in place, and then filed it down the the flats. Then, we drilled a new hole in the correct position for the touch hole liner, and vent.

Ideally, you should be able to use the existing drum hole in the barrel with a vent liner, to make a flintlock. The problem is that most gun makers don't have much experience making flintlocks, nor do they know how to make them fire fast. Almost all of the makers are more experienced making percussion guns, as they are much more easy to get to fire, and shoot well. The attention to just a few more details would make all the difference in changing locks from percussion to flint. T/C seems to be doing this now, with its new Flintlock action. The angle of the cock is better, and the touch hole seems to be positioned correctly on most guns.

 

[david50]

Dixie Gun Works no longer carrys the conversion kits, i can get locks from L&R but i have no idea what the thread size would be for the touch hole liners.i can get them from TOW if i new the size,any body know...thanks

thanks Samual didnt see your earlier reply