Bullet Sizing

[doc623]

I realize this could go in pistol or rifle sections so move if necessary.
Is there a home made way of sizing cast conicals?
I know that there are sizing dies available but was woundering if there is or if anyone has come up with a home made die or way of sizing cast conicals?
Thanks.

 

[mazo kid]

I think that most conicals are, by nature, swaged to size in the cylinder/bore. They need to be snug fitting to seal the cylinder in revolvers.

 

[doc623]

Thank you for the input; however that is not the question I asked.

 

[Darkgael]

If you take a look at Lee bullet sizing dies, you'll notice that they are very simple - basically, a steel tube bored to what ever size the bullet needs to be. The bullet is lubed and pushed through. Very simple.
If you had a drill press, the right sized drill bit (or a lathe and a boring bar), some patience, and an appropriate piece of steel, you could probably make one easily enough. You'd have to polish the bore of it a bit though, I imagine.
Depending on the size that you want, you could probably make one out of an old bit of gun barrel, though you'd need to turn or polish off any rifling in it.
Lee used to make custom sizing dies for about $25; given the work, that route may well be easier.
Pete

 

[MSW]

i agree with Pete. i've had a Lee sizer for several decades and have put a zillion (maybe more) .30 cal cast bullets through it. i suppose you could build your own, but for what they cost, and the level of precision you get, i think it would be more fun to spend the time shooting. if you go the Lee route you will (of course) need a modest loading press.

then, if you're going to get a press, you might as well get one with some capacity, then, since you already have a press, there's this lovely 45-70 falling block that would certianly put the press to good use...

 

[doc623]

Hey, thanks for the info.
I do have access to a single stage press.
Do I look for a "resizing die"?
And where might be the best place to start looking?
Thanks again.

 

[Dphar]

I realize this could go in pistol or rifle sections so move if necessary.
Is there a home made way of sizing cast conicals?
I know that there are sizing dies available but was woundering if there is or if anyone has come up with a home made die or way of sizing cast conicals?
Thanks.

Why is this necessary?
The diameter of an expansive bullet (one meant to expand to fit as the powder fires), so long as the bullet is not too undersized, is not that important with BP as the propellant.
Percussion revolvers size the bullet when its seated in the cylinder.
You can drill and ream (or split stick polish) a hole in a piece of steel and simply push the bullets through nose first.

Dan

 

[Idaho Ron]

I size my bullets for a couple of reasons. One is to get the bullets as perfectly round as possible. And since I paper patch my bullets I need to size them to fit the bore. Sizing can increase accuracy a bunch. Ron

 

[doc623]

Why is it necessary?
Well because some of my casts are not perfect and have maybe residual edges or stuff that does not really belong on the 'perfect cast conical'.
That is one reason and to be as similar one to another and therefore eliminating one more variable in trying to achieve the best accuracy that the revolver/long gun is capable of.

 

[mazo kid]

Doc, I do understand your trying to get the best accuracy....however, I still say that once the bullet is swaged into the cylinder/bore it doesn't make any difference whether it was sized first or simply sized in the process of loading. At least that's my feeling.

 

[Dphar]

Why is it necessary?
Well because some of my casts are not perfect and have maybe residual edges or stuff that does not really belong on the 'perfect cast conical'.
That is one reason and to be as similar one to another and therefore eliminating one more variable in trying to achieve the best accuracy that the revolver/long gun is capable of.

If the problems are so great you think that you need to size what you really need is a better bullet mould. Or you need to refine you casting technique. A good mould will produce very uniform bullets in size and weight once the proper process is worked out.
The bullet will need to be weighed with +- one grain for best accuracy at least from rifles, slow twists might allow a little more variation but much more than 1 gr +- is asking for problems.
If these are loaded in the muzzle the looser the fit the worse the accuracy is likely to be. Thus reducing them in size may be counter-productive.

Dan

 

[doc623]

Good points.
I'll have to look at the casting techniques.
I discovered that the dies are .457 and they are not fitting as tight and maybe need re-evaluated.
They or I am having lead left on the nose and the base of the casting.
I should try for a tighter fit first or replace the dies - Lee dies - for a better casting before I jump into sizing.
Any other suggestion on casting.
I also am getting a rough line down alson the side of the cast which I am thinging that is due to not uniformily heated die. Is that the case?

 

[mazo kid]

If you are getting flash along the sides, nose and base of the mold, it would appear the mold is not closing properly...or something (small piece of lead, alignment issues?) is keeping the mold from closing properly. You should not be able to see light through the mold when holding the sprue open and looking at a light source through the hole.

 

[Bountyhunter]

In the black powder gun, your choice of alloy is prime. Your alloy should be only tin/lead. Or, pure lead. If you begin with 1/16 ratio of tin to lead and your accuracy isnt what you want, then go to 1/20, and so on. Wheel weights have no place in a black powder gun.

The lighter your powder load, the softer your bullets need to be. We have one rifle that does not achieve accuracy until 1/40 alloy is used. Once your powder ignites and your bullet obiturates to fill the lands and grooves, or moulds to your smoothbore barrel, then you have effectively "sized" your "conical" perfectly.

Also, have you slugged your barrel? What does it actually measure? Just because it is assumed to be .457, doesnt mean it is. Perhaps it is .461. If your alloy is proper, it doesnt matter, because the bullet will bump up and it will be .461 when it comes out the end of the barrel.

 

1. Cast bullets should not need sizing. Sizing does not eliminate any variables, it introduces at least three new ones.

a. size of die
b. concentricity of home made die
c. size of bore

"Perfection" will require that you mike the barrel for proper size. Then you must mike the bullet for concentricity and size to detirmine that it is capable of attaining bore size + for proper sealing.

2. Are your castings showing a "flange" of lead or "hairs". Hairs are from bleed holes and are normal. A flange shows the mold is not closing properly. (Most of the time a burr, blockage or the blocks are too tight on the handles)

3. Cast bullets will always be imperfect. Voids and bubbles in the interior are always present and invisible. Even weighing the slugs will only tell you they are similar in weight and not that the voids are in the same place for identical preformance. Your goal is unattainable.

4. Your "perfect" bullet will be deformed by the act of forcing it down the imperfect bore of your rifle, which is the sizing operation that will match that bullet to that bore better than all your wasted atempts at creating the "perfect" projectile. This is why the bullets are cast oversize in the first place.

So now you need a micrometer, scales and a run out gauge so you can make a homemade sizing die and save $10, so you can preform an unneeded operation.

A new mold block will only set you back about $20.

Midway Shooting Supply sells the Lee products, molds and dies, online.

 

[ResearchPress]

I still say that once the bullet is swaged into the cylinder/bore it doesn't make any difference whether it was sized first or simply sized in the process of loading.

Swaging a bullet into the bore risks damage to the nose of the bullet due to the pressure applied to force the bullet in. This will have a detrimental affect on accuracy.

Cylindrical and conical bullets are commonly sized to just under bore size, and expand to fill the rifling when fired.

David

 

[ResearchPress]

If you begin with 1/16 ratio of tin to lead and your accuracy isnt what you want, then go to 1/20, and so on.

They're hard alloys for muzzle loaders although are used in BPCR. I would start at 40:1 lead:tin alloy and gradually work to harder alloys.

What muzzle loader are you using such hard alloys in? I shoot 30:1 in a .451 long range match rifle and also with a Whitorth rifle when firing the mechanically fitting hexagonal bullets.

David

 

[Darkgael]

"And where might be the best place to start looking"
Doc: Midway has been mentioned.
Here's the link:
sizing dies
Pete

 

[doc623]

Thanks.
How do you 'slug ' a barrel.

 

[Bountyhunter]

You can tie a "wad" on the end of a wire and push it into your barrel about 2". That forms a plug, and the wire should be stout enough so that you can pull this out.

Melt some Cerrosafe and pour in on top of the plug. It will cool and solidify. You can then pull it back out and mike it for an exact dimension of your barrel.

I prefer pure lead in my rifles, but have used some cast 20/1's with decent accuracy. I am using these on 500 gr long range boolits.