bullet lube?

[cowpoke1955]

You can also check ebay for bees wax. I've seen a lot of it there.

 

[tiger955]

I found some at my local "craft and candle" store as suggested by someone before, I never thought to look there. They have 1oz chunks for $3.99, and 1lb Blocks for 11.99. Thanks all for your help.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

The only reason you seem to disagree with my language is my use of the word, " Of " [the bullet] when describing obturation. My check of both my dictionary and my grammar book indicates I am using the preposition correctly.

My careful reading of your entire post indicates that you are being "obdurate". :rotf: :rotf:

I fear we are fighting a rear-guard action on this increasingly pervasive misuse of a transitive verb identifying an effect as an intransitive verb identifying a cause. This misuse occurs only in internal ballistics, but unfortunately, this is where I hear the word the most frequently, and those who do not encounter "obturate" outside of this limited sphere may never read/hear correct usage. Apparently the OED and some technical dictionaries have limited weight here.

In solidarity for linguistic correctness,
Joel

p.s. Should I open the can of worms that is the mechanism(s) of the obturation of the bore under/around a patched round ball?

 

[R.M.]

Huh????? :surrender:

 

[Joel/Calgary]

Huh????? :surrender:

"Obturation" is the sealing of something, not the mechanism that produces that sealing. It is a transitive verb - something obturates something else.

Obturation of some gap might be obtained by the fabricated close fit of some objects, by packing of something in between the objects, or by the deformation of one or more of the objects to close the gap, but none of these conditions is, in itself, the obturation, it is only the mechanism to produce the obturation.

The sealing could be achieved by a sphincter in a digestive tract, by piston rings in a motor cylinder, by a packing gland around a propeller shaft or a water-cooled machinegun barrel, by a shell's driving band or a minié ball's skirt, by the piston-and-expansion-ring on a 155mm howitzer's breechblock or a Chassepot rifle's bolt-head, by the the tight fit of a wad/wad column, by the deformation of a bullet's base, etc.

In what we usually discuss here, obturation is the sealing of the bore, not the deformation of the projectile that might produce the seal. If a ball or bullet upsets to only partially fill the grooves of the rifling, if it hasn't formed a seal, it hasn't obturated the bore, and it most certainly has not "obturated" (full stop).

Yes, on some things, I am a pedant, but some aspects of language are important.
Joel

 

[longcruise]

p.s. Should I open the can of worms that is the mechanism(s) of the obturation of the bore under/around a patched round ball?

Why not? We could take this thread to 100+ posts! :rotf:

Plus, it would give me an opportunity to drag out my round-ball-surrounded-by-gasses picture.

 

[hrchotaw]

I just got done reading this topic and all the sudden I feel alot more smarter!

 

[brubincam]

-----just don't let your head swell too much--you'll need a new hat-----

 

[Stumpkiller]

The sealing could be achieved by a sphincter in a digestive tract . . .

That's exactly the line of thought I had come up with.

 

[Walks with fire]

Trapping supply houses aways have pure beeswax for sale. It's used to treat traps to prevent them from rusting. Check trapping supply companies like Hawbakers.

 

[Dphar]

I disagree. Try using Unique, or 3031, or other powders in that .45-70, and you will see the bullet UPSET - as you insist on referring to obturation. 5744 powder is made specifically to be one of the slowest, low pressure powders being used. It may be slower than Black Powder. I have not tested it. But, BP does not burn with a with a Ski Jump spike as you suggest( perhaps FFFFg powder will, but that would be the exception.) BP burns slowly and has a bell curve shape to its pressure lines. That is why you need a minimum length of barrel for BP to burn efficiently.

The Bullet does Obturate. It does so in revolvers, and in rifles. I have seen this with pure lead balls, and lead conicals. With hard cast bullets in revolvers, the throat at the back of the barrel where the bullet enters the barrel will cause a slight delay causing the base of the bullet to upset in diameter due to the push of the BP gases behind it. The rest of the bullet remains its original sized shape. The back 1/10-1/18" will "bell" out a bit, and show the scoring of the lands as it passes into and through the barrel. The Belling of that base is what little "Obturation" you see using a hard cast bullet in a revolver. Even then, its rare to see that the lead is wide enough to fill the grooves in the barrel, as shallow as they may be.

The only reason you seem to disagree with my language is my use of the word, " Of " [the bullet] when describing obturation. My check of both my dictionary and my grammar book indicates I am using the preposition correctly. :hatsoff:

Some very fast smokeless powders will upset bullets at low pressure, 16000-18000. 7 gr of 231 would upset soft cast bullets in the forcing cone of my 38-40 Bisely. But it will not in a 45 Colt I had a 45 with .457 cylinder throats and it needed a .457 bullet when used with smokeless to prevent gas cutting. Then with the larger bullet it leaded the .451 bore badly.
The 38-40 bullets were upset full length but were often no longer properly centered in the bore and shot poorly. Revolver had a .400 cylinder throat and a .405 bore.

IMR/rifle types generally will *not* unless the pressure is in the HV range 40000 or so. Using early smokeless Mann was able to shoot bore sized bullets in 30-40 krag getting better velocity and accuracy than with groove sized bullets. But not at BP pressure levels. See Mann's "The Bullets Flight From Powder to Target". If you buy one get the recent edition with Harry Pope's notations.
BP will upset bullets very well and it does so before the bullet is fully in motion. The only bullet that does not show significant expansion is the patched RB and perhaps the cloth patched picket.
Shooting bullets with a short cartridge case (.015" or a little more short is often enough) will show that the bullet upsets where it is at rest in the chamber.
BP has attributes of a slow and fast powder. It will produce 1000 fps in some revolver cartridges, 38-40/44-40/45 Colt. Even FG will bump bullets very well and this is one reason the bore dimensions were not held terribly close to spec in the 1870s. Many original Sharps, including the target grade guns are .015" larger in the bore than the bullets used.
However.
Loading Unique in rifles in hazardous to the firearm.
Loading 5744 (even though its supposedly for low pressure loads etc etc) or 3031 or any IMR powder to BP velocities is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS if loaded to too low a pressure level.
Unique if loaded as recommended by Lymans 45-70 data will ring chambers, many many rings in many different places. A Shiloh came back circa 1990 that the owner had been using the lyman load in, this rifle had multiple rings all the way back to the web of the case and a large one at the bullet base.
Wolf called Ruger and they told them this load was a notorious ringer of chambers and they had #1s come back with over 100 rings up an down the chamber.
3031 (and the other IMR powders) at BP velocity levels is a breaker of guns, especially in larger capacity cases. This first appeared in Phil Sharpe's writings. Apparently he found this the hard way with reduced loads in some modern HV cartridge. Dupont knew this as well by the early years of production, mid-late 1930s.
It is very difficult to literally blow up a Shiloh Sharps. Massive overloads of rifle powders will not easily do this. But a too light load of 3031 will make one into a grenade. 50-52 grains in a 50-140 is poison.
Many think that blown up guns are a result of overloading. This is sometimes the case but very often it is UNDERLOADING and inconsistent ignition of smokeless powder that is the culprit. Even very fast powders like Bulleye will not "break" a heat treated alloy steel revolver cylinder with an overload. But use too little and the results will be catastrophic.
A very experienced reloader, hundreds of thousands of rounds, blew up a nice circa 1910 1st Gen SA Colt in 45 Colt with 6.5 gr of Red Dot simply because when he switched from a 250 gr bullet to a 200. Overload you say? Subsequent test proved that 13 grains would not hurt a vintage 45 Colt cylinder. He tried this after an executive at Smith and Wesson told him during a phone conversation that 13 grains of Red Dot would not blow the gun.
S&W has done extensive testing in this field but I will not detail all I have heard. I do know that a 38 special full wadcutter load of Bullseye in a 357 mag case with a 158 gr SWC is POISON and will eventually blow the gun, usually in less than a box of ammo.
As a result I recommend that smokeless loads in rifles make at least 1600 fps. Got a vintage rifle and don't want to shoot this velocity? Use BP. It’s safer in old guns anyway.
The second possibility is filler like Puff-Lon used as directed.

BTW 5744 is described as "an extremely fast burning double base, extruded powder" by Accurate. It’s not slow.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

I want to experiment with some cast bullets in my 1-48 barreled TC and am looking for a good lube recipe that will prevent leading with heavy loads. I also prefer something that will keep fouling to a minimum. I am looking for a formula that only uses common household products that can be purchased anywhere. In my searching pretty much any recipe I have found uses beeswax. Real beeswax is getting hard to find in the stores, haven't been able to find any in the state capital of NV anyway. I would prefer to use products I don't have to mail order. Was thinking of Crisco and parafin mix?
I am really worried about lead buildup. I bought a used TC years ago that was leaded so bad I finally gave up and bought a GM barrel. I have been shooting PRB's for a long time but want to use heavier bullets in my coyote/ lion gun.
Other than being messy, would plain Crisco work ok? Any advise from anyone who has experience in this would be greatly appreciated.

I would consider bullets a waste of time.
But thats just me.
The problem exhibited by the TC Maxi is very poor performance on game due to lack of expansion and failure to stay on track after striking game with the 48" twist.
Nor will they shoot flat enough past 100 yards for Coyotes. Round ball will kill these just as well and shoots flat enough for 120-130 yards shots.
If you are shooting lions closeup 35-50 yards or less get a 12 bore double ML shotgun and shoot PRBs from it this will do better than any of the modern ML bullets as a "stopper".
The only bullet I shoot in a ML is the cloth patched picket in a 40 caliber I have been experimenting with.
If I shoot bullets with BP I shoot my Sharps.
There are other options for bullets for the 48 twist as well. But if you are carrying the rifle on hunts make sure the unpatched bullet is still on the powder before pulling the trigger.
Dan

 

[longcruise]

Dan, both posts loaded with excellent information.

Thanks

 

[smokymtnsmokepole]

Dan Phariss said:

"The problem exhibited by the TC Maxi is very poor performance on game due to lack of expansion and failure to stay on track after striking game with the 48" twist."

?????????????????????????- Not trying to argue, but that's definitely news to me, I've shot probably 25 deer with TC maxi-hunters out of my .50 CVA Hawken with 1 in 48" twist, and over half of them have dropped in their tracks, and the rest were short, easy recoveries- most of them falling in sight and the others leaving a trail of blood that looked like it was poured out of a bucket.Don't see how they could get much deader.I have a friend who shoots maxi-hunters also and has probably killed more deer with them than I have, with the same consistant results.From what I've seen, they're one of the deadliest bullets I've ever used on deer from any gun, except maybe a 12-gauge slug.

 

[longcruise]

I think this failure to track is something seen on game larger than whitetails.

 

[Idaho Ron]

I have read before when guys will post the same thing.
"The problem exhibited by the TC Maxi is very poor performance on game due to lack of expansion"

I don't use the TC's I don't like them but expansion is not a big worry for me. The Hornady Great plains bullets expand BIG TIME and I have used them with good luck. I don't know about the bullets I make if they expand much I have not found one yet. They BLOW a big hole all the way through.
The fact is a 1/2" hole through the lungs is not a flesh wound. A 1/2" hole through any part of the vital organs in the chest is going to stop ANY animal fast. In africa they use SOLIDS for dangerous game. Guys here say if a bullet does not expand you will lose the animal. Over there if the bullet expands you might get killed.
Again their thought is a hole clear through the vital oragans with a solid is best.
I am not saying I like solids.I am saying that the thought that some guys have that an animal got away because a 1/2" bullet didnt expand is :bull: The animal got away because the shot was not placed correctly. Ron

 

[longcruise]

Right on Ron. Going back to this tracking thing, I have never seen it happen but trust the observations of those who have. Have only killed two animals with Maxi Ball. An elk and a deer. In both cases the Maxi tracked just fine, but in neither case did the Maxi encounter a major bone.

Something I have noticed regarding .45 and larger cal rifles such as the .458 Win Mag is that they have twist rates much faster than what has been determined to be adequate for hurling 550 grain bullets from a BP .45 cal rifle. A 1:18 is acceptable in a 45-70 for extra long range and even a 1:20 or 1:22 will work fine at ranges to 500 yards or so. OTOH, the .458 win mag has a twist rate of 1:14 for shooting 500 grain bullets.


All just speculation of course.

 

[excess650]

If the conicals "don't track straight", I would think it a function of the rifling twist. I have shot the 370gr maxiballs from both 1-48" AND 1-66" twists with similar accuracy, that is 1-1/2" at 50 yards with iron sights, of course, and made ROUND holes. Oval holes or keyholes would indicate inadequate stability.

A maxiball, maxihunter, or other conical in the 350-410gr range shouldn't be too dissimilar to the 50-70 or 12mm cartridges. Rifling twists in those early cartridges were pretty slow as well as in 1-38" to 1-48" range. A lot of bison and moose were taken with those rounds.

True, a 50cal conical from a MLer isn't a flatshooting round, but we're talking iron sights here anyway, aren't we? Personally, I would prefer to have the mass of the conical working for me at my self imposed limit of 100 yards vs a PRB from the same barrel.

Back to the original subject : lube

Lubes with other than petrolleum oils will work best. The BPCR lubes will work, but some may be a bit too firm for use with patches. I do panlube ML conicals myself. Beeswax isn't a lube, but hardens the other ingredients and doesn't readily burn. Anhydrous lanolin and oil are the working ingredients in a lube that I use, and that oil CAN BE synthetic motor oil. Try 7-3-3 by weight as a starting point. Use less or more beeswax to adjust the hardness. Remember that some oils can go rancid, that is why I mention synthetic motor oil (or even Dexron III ATF).

 

[longcruise]

Oval holes or keyholes would indicate inadequate stability.

The tracking issue was after hitting the animal.

 

[Idaho Ron]

All the Great plains bullets and now the bullets I make have all tracked true even after hitting a shoulder. I don't know about the TC bullets I have never used them. Ron