Brown Bess cleaning nightmare - Newbie

[CommodoreHull]

Good morning everyone,

As the title suggests, I'm a newbie at this. Thanks for having me on board, and I hope I'm not too much of a nuisance.

I have a Pedersoli Brown Bess that was gifted to me. I'm fastidious about keeping it clean and regularly spend over 2 hours going over it after the rare few shots (it's not exactly a fun gun to shoot, IMO). It is mounted on display on a wall right now, and while re-oiling it before going out of town, I discovered a bunch of fouling/wadding/burnt powder at the bottom of the barrel at the breech.

I discovered it when the ramrod stuck HARD in the bottom of the barrel. So hard I had to put the end of the rod in a vice and pull against the workbench. Did that twice before putting a flashlight down there and seeing a bunch of junk. Like I said, I go through this thing thoroughly, or so I thought, so I'm very surprised to see that.

Anyway, I got about 90% of it cleaned out, however that final 10% is giving me fits. Plus, in cleaning it out, I've now rubbed that gunk all the way up the whole bore, which is worrying me. Even running patches down there with oil or cleaning solvent gets the big pieces off but leaves an orange/rust-colored tint. I worked on it for about 3 hours last night with little result...eventually filled it with bore solvent and water and went to bed. Looks no worse right now, so at least that's good.

I consider this piece to be a showpiece and "family heirloom" instead of a hunting or range gun. Because of this, I'm pretty anal about making sure it gets good cleaning and doesn't get shot much. However I'm realizing that I don't know the first thing about cleaning/maintaining black powder guns here, and am worried it's going to cost me my $800-$1200 firearm.

Does anyone here have any pointers or thoughts? I realize it's hard to help over the internet, but any pointers are appreciated. I'm in the process of looking around for a good gunsmith or black powder specialist to send it to to get "fixed"...might even send it back to Dixie Gun Works for cleaning if they'll take it (calling today).

Thanks again everyone.

:idunno: :idunno:

 

[Many Klatch]

I shoot my Pedersoli Bess a lot. It takes me about 15 minutes to clean it after a day with up to 40 shots through it. I use hot tap water and Spic and Span to clean it. Black powder residue is water soluble so warm water seems to work best.

Pound a toothpick into the touch hole, fill the barrel with water and let it sit for a minute or so. Pour it out, run a patch down the bore. Do this a couple of times. Then run a wad of steel wool down the bore a few times. Pull out the toothpick, dry the bore with some new patches. Finally run an oil soaked patch down the barrel.

Don't forget to take the lock out and hold it under the tap to wash it off. Use a toothbrush to get all the grunge out. Blow the lock dry and reoil.

I'm not sure what you have been cleaning your Bess with but it sounds like you are working way too hard at it. The Bess was designed to be a rugged, easy to care for weapon that could spends months in the field without special care.

Many Klatch

 

[Leatherbark]

You will need a fouling scraper. It fits on your ramrod (with an adapter) that will allow you to scrape the face of the breech plug. evidentially over time the face of the plug has not been cleaned well during the normal routine and this crust has built up.

(Fouling Scraper) Scroll to the bottom for the 75 caliber scrapers.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/579/1

Bob

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The suggestion to give it a good soak is an excellent one.

The standard tool for bess cleaning was a pretty substantial worm, but you might benefit from a Possibles Shop Fouling Scraper (scroll down on the link). I use a .58 Worm from Dixie Gunworks, but I bent the tines outward to be closer to the diameter of the bess bore. It helps scraping, but you probably need the tool dedicated to scraping the bore.

LD

 

[Alden]

This is an unusual problem it seems to me. Yes, a tow worm first to get the stuff at the bottom -- "screw" out the stuff at the bottom like a cork in a wine bottle. Then use a breech scraper. Clean as usual. Oil after. You'll be fine...

 

[Rifleman1776]

(it's not exactly a fun gun to shoot, IMO).

Must disagree, respectfully of course, I think the BB is mostest funnest gun to shoot thar ever was or is. Oh, well. :wink:
Lots of good tips so far. Methinks possibly before you acquired it there was a lot of neglect involved in the cleaning process. That gunk is corrosive you need to get it out. I suggest you pick up a bottle of hydrogen peroxide (H2O2), plug the touchhole with a round toothpick and pour about 1/2 the bottle into the barrel and let set for five minutes or so. Then using a breech scraper or brillo on a worm give that breech area a real scrubbing. The repeat the hp treatment and reclean the bore with soapy water, lube, etc. I use small amounts of hp on all my guns when cleaning, it will dissolve gunk water might leave behind. I know some here will scream mightily at the idea of using hp in a gun. What you buy at the store will not harm steel, I have tested and used for many years. Hope you come to enjoy that ole 'Bess.

 

[bpd303]

I think the main problem is cleaning with "solvent". Like others have advised just use warm water with a little dish soap, then thoroughly dry and oil. It's that simple.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I think the main problem is cleaning with "solvent". Like others have advised just use warm water with a little dish soap, then thoroughly dry and oil. It's that simple.

Old, dried bp gunk can resist normal cleaning. That is why I suggest the use of hydrogen peroxide.

 

[bpd303]

I use hydrogen peroxide in my homemade moose milk and like how it works. Some say it's not needed but if it works why not use it.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I made a scraper that fits the cleaning rod. Gently turning is gets this crust out.

I often wonder if this build up gets very compressed by pressure and helps to firm it up!

Not to be neglected any way!

B :thumbsup:

 

[biliff]

Don't know what you mean by "bore solvent" but if you're using solvent meant for cleaning smokeless powder then you're creating a mess.

Blackpowder cleans up with water.

You may need to do repeated hot water flushes to get the accumulated junk out of there. If it's as bad as you say pulling the barrel and doing the breech in a bucket of hot soapy water while pumping a tight fitting patch/bore mop might be the way to go.

 

[54ball]

You have a grease problem.

BP fouling will clean up with water only. You do not even have to use soap for BP fouling.

BP fouling will not glue the rammer to the breech when you drop it in.

BP fouling when cleaned with wet cloth or tow will not leave gooey sticky areas and streaks.

Grease will do all of these things. What you describe sounds like cosomoline. Ask any GI how hard it is to clean out cosmoline, especially if the gun has been fired with it still in he barrel.

Since you have shot this gun without cleaning all the grease from assembly,shipping preservation or if this gun was used, the gun oil over time has pooled in the breech forming the same thing, a gooey mess of grease at the breech.

The grease will have to cut to clean the gun. BP solvents will not cut the grease because they are made to cut BP fouling, which as said will clean up with water.

To clean it out you have to have the stuff to properly clean the gun.

1 A jag or proper tow worm. I use a jag. A worm or ball puller is handy if you loose a patch in the bore.

2 Cotton cloth to clean the bore over the jag. I use old socks, ect ect. Some that use a worm use wads of tow or wads or balls of raw wool. For this job I may consider a a green scouring pad if it will fit over the jag.

3 A scraper is nice and it does help with the corners but it is not a must have ,without one it takes a little more elbow grease. Pun intended.

4 Proper screw drivers that fit the screws. ACE hardware $1.99 specials will not do it. You need hollow ground gunsmith divers that fit the slots. Now the hollow ground flat head bits that fit into a drill or changeable tip driver will work if you find the right size.
The musket Pickering Tool from Track of the wolf and others will work too but be careful of the pick end.

5 Pin Punches if you intend to remove the barrel.

6 A Good dish Soap like Dawn. Hey it cuts grease out of your way so it should be perfect. Palmolive if you prefer soft hands.

7 Hot Water.

8 WD 40 and a good gun oil.

9 Tooth pick to seal the vent.

10 Paste wax like Johnsons to protect the stock.

Barrel on

Remove the lock. Wax the stock. Wax the lock inlet as best you can but do not break anything. Plug the Vent with the tooth pick. Pour a mixture of hot water and dish soap down the bore. Fill the barrel up to about half or 3/4. Let it sit for a few minutes. Plug the muzzle with your finger and with the lock inlet to the floor. Turn the gun upside down, right side up to slosh the soapy water in the barrel. Use the same notion like a signal flag or the flag girl line of a marching band. Make sure you have enough space for this. Pour out the water and soap and repeat several times. After you have done this several times remove the tooth pick and with the vent to the floor pump the soapy water soaked cloth on the jag several times, like a kazillion until it's worn out or too dirty to use. Repeat repeat until the gun is clean.
Oil the barrel and reassemble the lock.

Barrel off

Remove the lock. Clean varnish or finish from around the end of the pins. Carefully drive the pins out of the stock with the proper punch. Remove the Tang bolt at the breech. Carefully remove the barrel from the stock. If it will not separate make sure all the pins and the tang bolt have been removed. Do not force it. After the barrel is removed place it breech down into a bucket of hot soapy water. With a wet soapy cloth on your jag, Go to town pumping the rammer. Water will be drawn through the vent and water will come out the muzzle due to all the pumping. Continue until all the grease is gone and change cloths regularly. When all the grease is gone oil the barrel and reassemble.

Once you have all this grease removed, the gun should be very simple to clean from now on in just a few minutes with water, that is if you are using real BP.

IMHO there is no need to use an oxidizer in cleaning a gun. Anything that will bleach hair will rust a gun, if it is not entirely removed.

 

[ghostdncr]

I don't have any groundbreaking hints or secret tips to add, but will offer that some great advice has been given. The Bess is a military weapon and was designed for easy field serviceability and operation. I have the Pedersoli version and it loads quickly, is easy to point and fire, and mine cleans up (complete barrel-off process) in about fifteen to twenty minutes. I generally do the more thorough cleaning process because my work schedule may have me carrying and shooting it for three days in a row and then it sitting untouched for two or more months. :td:

It's a fantastic weapon once you figure it all out!

 

[coloradoclyde]

I wonder how many people have been turned off muzzleloaders forever when they tried to clean it with an old fashioned Hoppes or Outers gun cleaning kit with nitro solvent and an aluminum 3 piece rod with plastic jags

 

[CommodoreHull]

Wow. You all are amazing....thank you very much. Looks like I found the right forum. This is way more info than I thought I'd get!

By way of update: I was able to fashion a little worm-like tool out of my broken wadding puller and some electrical wire. That got rid of pretty much all the fouling down there. Looking down the bore with a flashlight it looks shiny down there but not quite like I would like.

I called Dixie Gun Works and talked to their gunsmith. He said I could ship it back and they would run a bore scope (?) down it and check on the corrosion as well as give it a once over. So that's what I plan to do, mainly because I want to asess how much damage was done by that stuff sitting back there for a couple months.

Regarding you guys' recommendations...let's see, there's so much great info here. I placed a $50 order with Track of the Wolf for a bunch of black powder supplies including a worm (had never heard of those before), bore scraper, oil, and a couple other things. So I should be well equipped to maintain this in the future.

I'm glad to see that I can simply use warm warer to clean out BP fouling. Showing my ignorance, when I first got the gun I assumed that since it was not blued at all but was bare metal, that it would corrode if given the slightest excuse and that water was death to a shootable gun. I'd been using a milky white bore solvent (I forget the brand...yellow label) and that worked ok but not awesome.

Someone disagreed that the Bess is not a fun gun. I think part of the reason I don't enjoy shooting it is the long cleaning I was doing. Maybe that will change now...if I can conquer my flinch. That said, I'm the only one who can (relatively) consistently hit anything with it, so it's fun to show it to "historians" and history buffs who think it can't hit the broad side of a barn and was made by buffoons.

Cosmoline....I fortunately have not been using that, though I do not always wipe out the bore before the first shot. Perhaps that's hurting me. I've been using Hoppe's 9 oil all over...probably too much in fact.

Thanks again so much for the detailed and helpful replies. I'll keep you all posted.

:hatsoff:

Some pics of my cleaning tool (pretty chuffed with myself to have made that ) and a poor iPhone shot down the muzzle.

 

[ghostdncr]

Maybe that will change now...if I can conquer my flinch.

She packs a rather mighty prime, eh? I picked up a considerable flinch when first shooting mine. Flint shards peppering one's face as a half-handful of powder ignites four inches away from your eye can do that, it seems! :rotf: Nowadays, my properly knapped and fitted flints don't shatter and I've grown more accustomed to her enormous flash and boom. We've enjoyed many miles together and aside from her considerable weight wearing me down later in the day, she's been an absolute treasure. One of those weapons bought on a whim because she was dirt cheap and I just wanted to see what the Bess was all about. Had every intention of shooting a few dozen rounds through her and then selling at great profit, but that ain't happening...

Your bore looks just about as rough as mine but so far, but I've had no issues with corrosion as a result. I continue to think that someday I'll get around to polishing out the bore but so far, I've made no moves toward realizing that.

Your cleaning thingamagizzie is an interesting tool. Nicely executed, sir! The pleasing lines speak strongly of your abilities and you've every right to be chuffed. Are you using that in concert with a cleaning patch of some sort? I have one of TOTW's two-prong worms for my Bess and it seems to work equally well with patches or tow (flax fibers) once I adjusted the prongs a bit and figured out how to properly twist and capture each material.

 

[Many Klatch]

Save some time and money. Instead of sending the gun to Dixie for them to run a borescope you can drop a small flashlight down the bore and see how it looks. I was at Harbor Freight once and picked up a small flashlight for about $1 that fits in the barrel.

A couple of swipes with steel wool and oil will probably have the inside of your barrel shining.

Many Klatch

 

[Loyalist Dave]

All I do is take a spent cartridge case like a spent .223 and cover the butt end with some foil, shiny side to the outside, then drop it mouth first down the muzzle, so it acts like a mirror, and use an LED flashlight to illuminate the interior. For Christmas I got a digital inspection camera, so I can now look at any of the pitting inside the barrels of long neglected muskets to see if they are badly corroded, when I service them. The cartridge and foil trick works fine to perform a basic check.

LD

 

[Rifleman1776]

BP fouling will clean up with water only

I understand where you are coming from with that statement. But, it is true in theory only. Most black powders are produced with non-pure, industrial ingrediants that leave 'stuff' behind when fired that does not readily clean up. Reportedly, only Swiss (and maybe a couple others) use pharmecutical grade ingrediants that are (nearly) pure. I have seen old gunk build ups that required almost chisleing away to remove.
Serious build ups can be cleaned with various methods beyond water or water and soap. That is why I advocate the use of H2O2 in the breech for a normal cleaning session.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I think part of the reason I don't enjoy shooting it is the long cleaning I was doing.

That is the nature of the ml game.
Love it or leave it. :grin: