Breech Plug / liner safety question...

[htredneck]

Let me begin by saying I am furious...
This is on a Colerain barrel that has less than three dozen shots down the tube. Essentially a brand new, .36 caliber barrel. Rifle is a small siler flinter, and was slow or no fire on every shot. Suggestions from everyone was to install a Chambers White Lightning liner. I ordered a 1/4-32 liner, pulled the barrel and took it with the liner to a 'gunsmith'...

Three weeks later, on the promised complete day, I went to pick it up. By the time I left, it was all I could do to not turn the guy into a popsickle with the barrel. He over-drilled the hole on the 1/4" liner so he went to a 5/16" liner. The liner contacted the breechplug so his answer was to grind back the face of the plug - badly. The liner is still intact, meaning it hasn't been cut back or filed (not installed) either. I blew a fuse, had more than a few choice words that amounted to expect a bill or a summons for a court date.

With the face of the plug squared, the result is shown in the picture. Now for my dilemma... I have asked numerous people around here but want more input. You can see in the picture, there is a definitive gap between the face of the plug and the shoulder. Not so obvious is impact to the hole for the vent liner. The breech plug has seven full threads, the vent liner - where the hole is in direct line with the plug - only has two threads.

This is a .36 caliber rifle, shooting a max load of 30 grains 3F, with normally a 20 - 25 grain load. I have been told everything from it will still be safe to shoot by sealing the threads with PTFE, sealing the threads with lead solder, fill the breech plug / shoulder gap with lead - all the way to buy a new barrel because of the liner threads in the one spot.

So now I am throwing it out here for serious advise... as well as possibly someone who can fix it that knows what they are doing as I really don't have the time or experience depending on the required solution...

 

[necchi]

The Gunsmith needs to replace the barrel.

 

[54ball]

The truth is, you're screwed.

I think you already know that.

Any "easy fix" will be BS.

I think you know that too.

You may can file the breech end of the barrel and get it to fit the inside shoulder. Once fitted inside and the tang clocked correctly, you may have to notch the breech plug face. You may have to adjust the pin holes on the lugs. The vent may be a little back from center, looks like it might be OK.

Another option is fitting a new plug, not easy on a finished rifle, the tang has to be bent and shaped to fit an already completed stock.

Maybe others will chime in.

 

[htredneck]

I have been leaning towards replacing the breech plug. The barrel is a straight 13/16" with what seems to be a basic, plain jane breech plug. Of all the choices, that seems to be the easiest. At least easier than shortening the barrel, moving the ramrod pipes, all that fun stuff. If nothing else, the pins would still line up with the stock... I have added pictures of the plug as well so you can tell me if I am smoking something... or should start smoking something...

 

[juancho]

New barrel and plug .You could reuse the barrel , but you have to move all the lugs to the old position, or re-drill the stock to the new position.
If you cant or know how to do it yourself , send it to a good gunsmith and pass the bill to the guy the screwed your gun.
Or have such guy pay for a new gun.
If you change the plug , the liner would interfere with the plug, just as it happened to your "gunsmith".

 

[MSW]

htredneck, I'm sorry that you've been "done dirty." I agree with the Canadian fellow - you're going to be looking at a new barrel and a new plug.

bummer

 

[htredneck]

If I take one inch off the barrel and go with a patent breech, the one inch mark falls 3/16" forward of the existing liner hole countersink. That would require a new vent hole which would eliminate the need for the liner - provided it was done correctly. I have no way to do that so it would be up to a gunsmith. If I go with a new plug and deal with the alignment issues, I can do that, but there is still the issue of the liner and the thin thread spot. If I go this route and dome a new plug, it potentially lessens the amount of follow on work...

This isn't my only .36, I have a percussion one still. I am also kicking around just saying screw it and either rebuild the whole thing or part it out and buy another one...

There

 

[coloradoclyde]

Small claims court.

 

[54ball]

Small claims court.

Yeah right...

htredneck, You could very well loose.

Firstly, We all know the score. We know who is at fault. What many do not realize unless you have been there, is proving negligence or legal responsibility.

#1 the job was not finished when the customer demanded back the product

#2 the smith can claim #1 and that he could have corrected it in the finishing process. The reality is he could not fix it. We all know that...In court world though, its proving he could not fix it which is now an impossibility.

#3 The time off work, attorney fees and the fact you could pay court costs, the gunsmith and still have broken rifle. All over what? 300 bucks or less?

#4 Take the high road. It's always the best. The guy bit off more than he could chew. Many modern gunsmiths think that muzzleloaders are simple easy fixes. He learned a lesson and so did you.
It sounds like you held your cool. As painful as this sounds you need to square it with him. For your benefit not his.
Contact him, talk to him like a man, be a gentleman. Tell him the following and it's the truth.
" To properly fix my barrel, labor will be more than the barrel is worth. To properly fix the rifle I'm going to have to have a new barrel, a new breach and have it fit and finished to the rifle, plus any finish done to the rifle in the fitting process. Is there any thing you can do?" If he says "No" Ask if you are square? If he yes You're done If he demands payment..pay the guy and let him live with it. done

 

[19 16 6]

If I take one inch off the barrel and go with a patent breech,

That seems reasonable.
O.

 

[54ball]

I have been leaning towards replacing the breech plug. The barrel is a straight 13/16" with what seems to be a basic, plain jane breech plug. Of all the choices, that seems to be the easiest. At least easier than shortening the barrel, moving the ramrod pipes, all that fun stuff. If nothing else, the pins would still line up with the stock... I have added pictures of the plug as well so you can tell me if I am smoking something... or should start smoking something...

Here is the scoop, Boos boos are hard to fix. Harder than working with a new gun. Lets take the new plug. Not only does it have to be fitted correctly on the inside, it has to be clocked to the top flat. This could still mean shortening the barrel, not as much but some.

Then there is fitting the tang to the wrist. Then there is drilling for the tang bolt. That could be very difficult to drill precisely though to the original location. You could go through the bottom from the existing hole but if it is oversize it still may not be precise.

The gap to be made up on the inside of the bore is what? Looks to be about a 16th. All you may have to do is file a slot for the pins and adjust the wood inlets just that much. Look to see how much the barrel can be slid back with virtually no modifications. I'll bet you have enough to work with.

That's why I suggested keeping the original plug and re fitting it.

I have not mentioned the liner, it needs to be fit too. It needs to filed to match the inside of the bore. Then there is the interface with the plug. Notching the plug is no big deal. If it is fit well to the inside of the bore, it may not need to be notched at all.

What you could do or be satisfied with may be much different than what I would do or be satisfied with.

All in all this is a big freaking mess and it's going to take some work and money just to get back to where you were.

I hate it for you.

:cursing: This is what upsets me the most about this whole deal. The liner may have not solved your ignition problem.
Every new flintlock has some problems and is finicky. Drilled vents have been used as long as flintlocks and stuff like this fiasco is why I hate dang liners. IMHO the only use for them is for a shot out vent or someone who is anal and wants that extra bit of performance.
I hate that you took the "experts" advice.

 

[Birddog6]

I'd put a new barrel in it, were it me. Even with a new breechplug or refitting that one, you are going to have to grind out half the plug to get the vent liner to work. :shake: Other option is to counterbore the breechplug face & vent liner into the side of plug....... but I don't like that either.... I would replace the barrel.

1: It appears the barrel was improperly breeched in the first place. About 1/2 of the Colerain barrels I have used have been like that. But that actually has no bearing on the "So-called" gunsmith error.

2: Obviously, the "so-called" gunsmith you used, is not. Why he drilled to a larger dia ? i can think of several reasons, but end result is same so no use going into all of that..

3: If the guy that screwed it up is a good businessman, he will replace the barrel if you ask him to. But most likely he is not & this will not happen. As if he was, he would have told you right up front, "Hey, I wrecked this barrrel & gonna buy you a new one".

4: Taking him to small claims court is a total waste of time, you took the job from him before he finished it.

5: This is gonna bug ya from now on, so just replace the barrel & be done with it. If you use a Colerain barrel, you need to rebreech it Before ya install it, as it will most likely have the same breechplug face/bore gap..
And if it were me, I would move the barrel back in the wrist enough for the vent liner to clear the breechplug face. I would still go with the Chambers vent liner as well, and 1/4" liner.

Keith Lisle

PS: You could have the barrel cut off at breech & rebreeched properly, then use for another rifle project.

 

[htredneck]

Anynapproach I take is going to result in some browning and some wood work. The wood work is not an issue, I happen to be pretty good at that. In fact, the buttplate fit could be better.

Sleeping on it and letting my blood pressure come down helped a lot. I am thinking cut off and rebreech, keeping the barrel as close to the same length as possible. The impact of that should be minimized for everything forward of the trigger. There is no tip to contend with, the forened is all wood. I will have some 'worm holes' for 'character' but I am pretty good at hiding those kinds of things. If I am right, the inletting for a similar or new tang would be the biggest impact. That being the case, careful work and sharp tools are the answer there...

 

[Birddog6]

That would be the cheapest solution, and worth of consideration since you don't have a nosecap to contend with. (Front RR pipe distance :hmm: )

And you could use same breechplug, but again I would set the barrel back a tad to clear the vent liner, if you are going to use a vent liner. Then ya need someone to properly drill/tap the breech & breech it. DO NOT send it back to Colerain for this, as they don't hand fit breech plugs, it is a machine cut (& not too carefully done) and screw in the breechplug. They put a 1/2" plug in a 3/4" depth hole for me one time. :shocked2:
Bobby Hoyt can do it & so can Ed Rayl, & both do quality work.

Keith Lisle

 

[don hepler]

Rebreeching to a "Patented" style breech would be a lot of work, but it seems like it would work. TC used it on their rifles. The problem is, the amount of work. The barrel would have to be cut and threaded. And the breech plug would have to be custom made to match the necessary length needed, then the tang would have to be cut and shaped to fit the original mortise. Any competent smith or machinist, could do it. At least no pins, or tenons would have to be moved. If done correctly barrel would remain in it's original position. I am a machinist and it seems like a possibility, however I am not a builder, so it would be better if a competent gun builder weighed in on the idea.

 

[Tinker2]

Any competent smith or machinist, could do it.

“Competent”
And therein lies the rub.




William Alexander

 

[wattlebuster]

I hate ya been done wrong but if I were you I would just order a new barrel and leave it out of a courtroom. With our courts and lawyers and judges you could take another screwing an still end up having to buy a barrel and pay court cost. We all know you are in the moral right but moral no longer exsists in courtrooms in america anymore :shake:

 

[don hepler]

Would it be possible to fit the hole with a plug. Loctite it in place, then cut it off flush with the barrel. Replace the breech plug with a new one. Then drill a new flash hole (through the repair plug). The chamfer on the hole has chatter, and would need to be smooth before the bevel on the repair plug would mate up tight enough. After browning, the plug should be pretty well hidden.

 

[brubincam]

JUDGE JUDY would tell you what she thinks :idunno:

 

[kurts]

I would make a new patent style breech plug, tap the barrel past the vent hole , drill the vent through the hole that's there. you don't have to worry about timing the tang because you will make it to match the top flat.